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Thread: Musings of late...

  1. #21
    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post

    There appears to be a pattern of human behaviour with regard to the rise and fall of religions. It is also worth thinking about the expression 'long term' as most people have no real conception of what this should mean in a Universal sense - certainly 2000 years of inconsistent religious application cannot be considered long term. Buddhism has been going longer, Hinduism longer still, and both still have millions of adherents. How would you interpret that?
    Religions are human constructs, maps, guidebooks. The map is not the Territory.

    Like all maps, any given religion or sect will have stuff that is right and stuff that is wrong. The longer a map (or religion) remains in stasis the less accurately it will reflect the Territory.

    The fact that no religion will be completely right is no more a problem than the fact that no map is completely right. Errors on a map do not make a map worthless; they simply make it wise for you to test the map against reality.

    There is no "God of the Bible" just as there is not even a universal "Bible¸™". Christian Bibles vary from the smallest Canon that includes only those books likely canonized during Jesus lifetime (the first five books) to the largest Canon that includes over 80 books. The description of the "God character" found in Genesis 1 is entire different than the "God character" found in Genesis 2&3 and the various "God characters" evolve and morph throughout the stories just as many of the stories themselves evolve and morph (look at the evolution of the Great Commission or of the evolution of Paul's encounter as the story is told and retold in the Bible).

    But religions still serve a purpose, just as an inadequate map can still be a guide.

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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    Maybe it's time for humanity to shed religions just as kids no longer believe in Santa and the tooth fairy.

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuasam View Post
    Maybe it's time for humanity to shed religions just as kids no longer believe in Santa and the tooth fairy.
    But I most definitely believe in Santa. Can't comment on the Tooth Fairy.

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    Default Musings of late...

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuasam View Post
    Maybe it's time for humanity to shed religions just as kids no longer believe in Santa and the tooth fairy.
    But I most definitely believe in Santa. Can't comment on the Tooth Fairy.
    Santa is a construct invented by Coca Cola and used by retail to peddle crap. Religions are used by humans to fool the idiots and justify horrible behaviour.

    A bad map might prevent the traveller from reaching his destination.
    Last edited by Chuasam; December 29th, 2015 at 11:00 AM.

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuasam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuasam View Post
    Maybe it's time for humanity to shed religions just as kids no longer believe in Santa and the tooth fairy.
    But I most definitely believe in Santa. Can't comment on the Tooth Fairy.
    Santa is a construct invented by Coca Cola and used by retail to peddle crap. Religions are used by humans to fool the idiots and justify horrible behaviour.

    A bad map might prevent the traveller from reaching his destination.
    While no map leaves one simply wandering.

    Santa predates Coca-Cola.

    Many things are used by humans to fool idiots and justify horrible behavior.

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    Senior Member Morgaine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    I'm confused!

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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaine View Post
    I'm confused!
    Just remember that Christianity betrayed King Arthur.

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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    Quote Originally Posted by fqgouvea View Post
    If you're driving down a road, you entrust your wellbeing to the road makers. In that sense, you have put your faith in them. You probably don't have unassailable proof that the road can be trusted, .... fqgouvea@roadrunner.com
    The word faith and the word trust are often conflated. But here we have a difference.
    I trust the "road maker". But "faith" has nothing to do with that. I can access directly, with my senses, and communicate about in detail, with others, things like highway departments, various road & highway related plans, maps, companies etc. I have also, with my own senses on numerous occasions, observed road construction and repair.

    your analogy is essentially the argument made by Paley, in 1802, (i.e. the faulty analogy; a watch implies a watchmaker. But since a watchmaker and a watch are observable biogeophysical objects, the analogy fails, This is because most conceptions of god(s) (including those of the Abrahamic Faiths) include its being super-natural (in the dictionary sense: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature. ) Therefore it is to put it simply, trying to compare apples and oranges.

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    Senior Member fqgouvea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    Quote Originally Posted by moynihan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fqgouvea View Post
    If you're driving down a road, you entrust your wellbeing to the road makers. In that sense, you have put your faith in them. You probably don't have unassailable proof that the road can be trusted, .... fqgouvea@roadrunner.com
    The word faith and the word trust are often conflated. But here we have a difference.
    I trust the "road maker". But "faith" has nothing to do with that. I can access directly, with my senses, and communicate about in detail, with others, things like highway departments, various road & highway related plans, maps, companies etc. I have also, with my own senses on numerous occasions, observed road construction and repair.

    your analogy is essentially the argument made by Paley, in 1802, (i.e. the faulty analogy; a watch implies a watchmaker. But since a watchmaker and a watch are observable biogeophysical objects, the analogy fails, This is because most conceptions of god(s) (including those of the Abrahamic Faiths) include its being super-natural (in the dictionary sense: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature. ) Therefore it is to put it simply, trying to compare apples and oranges.
    I'm certainly not using Paley's argument, because I'm not trying to prove anything. Certainly not to prove that "God exists", whatever that means. Attempting such a proof strikes me as contradictory, in fact, at least according to a classical Christian understanding of what "God" means.

    I was just trying to explain what most Chrisrians mean by the word faith: not blind assent, but reasonable trust.


    Fernando Gouvźa -- fqgouvea@roadrunner.com

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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    [QUOTE=fqgouvea;154675][QUOTE=moynihan;154630]
    Quote Originally Posted by fqgouvea View Post
    I was just trying to explain what most Chrisrians mean by the word faith: not blind assent, but reasonable trust.
    fqgouvea@roadrunner.com
    OK. But faith can include "trust", but that type of trust is not "reasonable" . The concept of "reason" is empirical, analytic, rational. One can trust based on reason or on faith. But trust based on faith is by its very terms not "reasonable". To paraphrase Maye West, reason has nothing to do with it.
    The Greco-Romans had a neat way of handling this, prior to the Christian era. They had logos and mythos. Logos meant the understanding the observable world via reason. Mythos, or story, that being stories about the gods, etc. teaching us how to live with each other. The factual truth of those stories was essentially irrelevant, a non sequitur as fact was the concern on the logos way of knowing. In Christianity, Mormonism and the other non-trinitarian variants, and fundamentalist Islam, logos and mythos have been conflated, contributing to the making for the now all too obvious long, troubled voyage, in calm weather.

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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    In the end trying to discuss philosophy like this isn't, well, reasonable. But at least we have isolated a real point of disagreement: What do we mean by "reason"? Clearly not the same thing. But I won't elaborate, as this requires more time and space.


    Fernando Gouvźa -- fqgouvea@roadrunner.com

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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    There are always disagreements when personal interpretations of a term deviate from the accepted definition.

    Most often the deviation is an exercise in self-support.

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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    I'm leaning towards humanism these days...

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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaine View Post
    I'm leaning towards humanism these days...
    At least humans are real

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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    Unlike evolution...

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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bold2013 View Post
    Unlike evolution...

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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuasam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaine View Post
    I'm leaning towards humanism these days...
    At least humans are real
    Are there really folk alive today that doubt that evolution is a fact or that the earth is billions of years old or that humans are not just another primate or ...

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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    I live in the U.S., and here, like in a few of the Fundamentalist Islamic states, there are a lot of folks who do not accept evolution through natural selection. For a humorous video on the subject of evolution this is my favorite

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    Default Re: Musings of late...

    Quote Originally Posted by moynihan View Post
    I live in the U.S., and here, like in a few of the Fundamentalist Islamic states, there are a lot of folks who do not accept evolution through natural selection. For a humorous video on the subject of evolution this is my favorite
    You sure they are not just funnin' us, pulling our collective legs, a long running POE, a carny "freak show", jess a joke?

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    Default Musings of late...

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moynihan View Post
    I live in the U.S., and here, like in a few of the Fundamentalist Islamic states, there are a lot of folks who do not accept evolution through natural selection. For a humorous video on the subject of evolution this is my favorite
    You sure they are not just funnin' us, pulling our collective legs, a long running POE, a carny "freak show", jess a joke?
    Look up the Neuro Surgeon and wannabe Presidential Candidate Ben Carson.

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