Musings of late...

[Manny]

[VertOlive]

I'm with you on this Manny. But after a day like today in a place like San Bernardino, there's some that need a little tangible encouragement, I think.

[jar]

What's more, why is the proof offered that there is a God always so utterly stupid. That billboard is barely up to the cute kitten standard when it comes to proofs plus it is obvious that the folk posting the billboard are from the proof-texts that take quotes out of context snake oil salesman branch of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.

[fqgouvea]

Ah, we cultish Christians, it's not like there's a two thousand year intellectual tradition or anything.

Main point: that is NOT the definition of faith.

That said, I certainly agree that "proving that god exists" is a silly exercise. It's a little like making a speech to prove language exists.


Fernando Gouvêa -- fqgouvea@roadrunner.com

[Manny]

[fqgouvea]

It's arguably the non-believers' definition, sure. But it's certainly not the main meaning in a Christian context: faith is trust in something, it is trusting yourself to whatever it is you have faith in. The crucial element is not lack of proof, but rather trust.

If you're driving down a road, you entrust your wellbeing to the road makers. In that sense, you have put your faith in them. You probably don't have unassailable proof that the road can be trusted, but that hardly matters.


Fernando Gouvêa -- fqgouvea@roadrunner.com

[moynihan]

If you're driving down a road, you entrust your wellbeing to the road makers. In that sense, you have put your faith in them. You probably don't have unassailable proof that the road can be trusted, .... fqgouvea@roadrunner.com

The word faith and the word trust are often conflated. But here we have a difference.
I trust the "road maker". But "faith" has nothing to do with that. I can access directly, with my senses, and communicate about in detail, with others, things like highway departments, various road & highway related plans, maps, companies etc. I have also, with my own senses on numerous occasions, observed road construction and repair.

your analogy is essentially the argument made by Paley, in 1802, (i.e. the faulty analogy; a watch implies a watchmaker. But since a watchmaker and a watch are observable biogeophysical objects, the analogy fails, This is because most conceptions of god(s) (including those of the Abrahamic Faiths) include its being super-natural (in the dictionary sense: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature. ) Therefore it is to put it simply, trying to compare apples and oranges.

[fqgouvea]

If you're driving down a road, you entrust your wellbeing to the road makers. In that sense, you have put your faith in them. You probably don't have unassailable proof that the road can be trusted, .... fqgouvea@roadrunner.com

The word faith and the word trust are often conflated. But here we have a difference.
I trust the "road maker". But "faith" has nothing to do with that. I can access directly, with my senses, and communicate about in detail, with others, things like highway departments, various road & highway related plans, maps, companies etc. I have also, with my own senses on numerous occasions, observed road construction and repair.

your analogy is essentially the argument made by Paley, in 1802, (i.e. the faulty analogy; a watch implies a watchmaker. But since a watchmaker and a watch are observable biogeophysical objects, the analogy fails, This is because most conceptions of god(s) (including those of the Abrahamic Faiths) include its being super-natural (in the dictionary sense: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature. ) Therefore it is to put it simply, trying to compare apples and oranges.

I'm certainly not using Paley's argument, because I'm not trying to prove anything. Certainly not to prove that "God exists", whatever that means. Attempting such a proof strikes me as contradictory, in fact, at least according to a classical Christian understanding of what "God" means.

I was just trying to explain what most Chrisrians mean by the word faith: not blind assent, but reasonable trust.


Fernando Gouvêa -- fqgouvea@roadrunner.com

[moynihan]

[QUOTE=fqgouvea;154675][QUOTE=moynihan;154630]

I was just trying to explain what most Chrisrians mean by the word faith: not blind assent, but reasonable trust.
fqgouvea@roadrunner.com

OK. But faith can include "trust", but that type of trust is not "reasonable" . The concept of "reason" is empirical, analytic, rational. One can trust based on reason or on faith. But trust based on faith is by its very terms not "reasonable". To paraphrase Maye West, reason has nothing to do with it.
The Greco-Romans had a neat way of handling this, prior to the Christian era. They had logos and mythos. Logos meant the understanding the observable world via reason. Mythos, or story, that being stories about the gods, etc. teaching us how to live with each other. The factual truth of those stories was essentially irrelevant, a non sequitur as fact was the concern on the logos way of knowing. In Christianity, Mormonism and the other non-trinitarian variants, and fundamentalist Islam, logos and mythos have been conflated, contributing to the making for the now all too obvious long, troubled voyage, in calm weather.

[Chuasam]

I would definitely like to examine that evidence. Of course it would be subjected to scientific methods.

[penwash]

I would definitely like to examine that evidence. Of course it would be subjected to scientific methods.

I see that you are also putting your faith, not in God, but in scientific methods.

So some of us put our faith in God, and some of us put our faith in science and our reasoning ability to comprehend things.
One thing is consistent, if we, as a human being were to go through the difficulties of life, we have to have faith / belief in something.

[henkm]

'Firm belief in something for which there IS proof' would not be faith, it would be knowledge, so I think it is an essential element of the definition. It's just that a believer won't think it important to contemplate the (non)existence of evidence. I think this is neatly illustrated by your road example as well.

[Manny]

So, I read referenced Romans 1:20 from the billboard, and honestly, I wasn't "feelin' it". Pointing out all the things someone is doing wrong is a sure way to turn them off. At least that's what I got out of it.

[jar]

So, I read referenced Romans 1:20 from the billboard, and honestly, I wasn't "feelin' it". Pointing out all the things someone is doing wrong is a sure way to turn them off. At least that's what I got out of it.

The issue is that Romans is a really long letter. In it Paul begins with talking about issues and only during the second half does he go on to talk about what we should do to address the issues; but the Christian Cult of Ignorance quote miners don't read the whole thing, they just take material out of context to suit their own agenda.

But that group doesn't really believe what the Bible says anyway. They claim they do but that is simply lying. Of course they lie to themselves as well as everyone else.

It's funny but they are the very folk Jesus or Paul or Peter or Timothy would have condemned.

[Manny]

I was gonna call the number on the billboard, but someone saved me the trouble by posting this YouTube vid...

[Manny]

I'm with you on this Manny. But after a day like today in a place like San Bernardino, there's some that need a little tangible encouragement, I think.

At Sunday's mass, Father Pat started his homily with a story about a monk and a soldier.
A soldier asks a monk he met to teach him about heaven and hell. The monk replies, "Teach you? You're just a dumb soldier, and not a very good one at that! You're dirty, and a disgrace to that uniform! Get out of my sight!"
Furious, the soldier whips out his pistol, cocks it, and puts it against the monk's head, and says, "Fool of a monk, do you not know who you're talking to? I've killed for less!"
As the soldier's finger quivers on the trigger, the monk calmly looks at the soldier, and quietly says, "That, my friend, is hell."
It takes a moment for the soldier to realize the lesson, and in shame, puts his pistol away-apologizing at the feet of the monk. To which the monk kindly says to him, "And this, is heaven."

This story was originally a Zen parable of a monk and a Samurai warrior, I think; but Father Pat used the soldier adaptation of the parable to illustrate the condition of faith in our world today, which really hasn't changed since Jesus' time.
In his homily, Father Pat, talked about how we are all made in the image of God, and faith teaches us to be in awe of God. And, in light of the horrible events of the past couple of weeks, in Paris and San Bernadino, the debate is really no longer about gun control and/or violence anymore; but about how we as a society seem to be losing the awe of God that is in each of us.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I only got through about half of that video before I had to submit to a medical intervention.

Anyway ... I tend to see Christians (and this could apply to other 'faiths' as well) as existing on a spectrum of hoops that one has to jump through before being admitted to the alleged après vie. The number of hoops being directly proportional to the number of people telling you that you are doing your religion the wrong way.

[penwash]

I only got through about half of that video before I had to submit to a medical intervention.

Anyway ... I tend to see Christians (and this could apply to other 'faiths' as well) as existing on a spectrum of hoops that one has to jump through before being admitted to the alleged après vie. The number of hoops being directly proportional to the number of people telling you that you are doing your religion the wrong way.

Christianity is a revelation that there is a God who cares and willing to rescue His creations who have gone wayward.
There is one decision to make, and a lifelong journey of spiritual growth to either endure or enjoy (God supplies the fuel, lodging, fresh air, and beautiful sights).

The hoops are created by ourselves who refused to let go of our self-destruct perspective to be replaced by God's life-giving one.

[Chuasam]

I only got through about half of that video before I had to submit to a medical intervention.

Anyway ... I tend to see Christians (and this could apply to other 'faiths' as well) as existing on a spectrum of hoops that one has to jump through before being admitted to the alleged après vie. The number of hoops being directly proportional to the number of people telling you that you are doing your religion the wrong way.

Christianity is a revelation that there is a God who cares and willing to rescue His creations who have gone wayward.
There is one decision to make, and a lifelong journey of spiritual growth to either endure or enjoy (God supplies the fuel, lodging, fresh air, and beautiful sights).

The hoops are created by ourselves who refused to let go of our self-destruct perspective to be replaced by God's life-giving one.

Christianity is barely 2,000 years old. Humans have been around at least 75,000. Like all religions it will come to pass too.

[penwash]

I only got through about half of that video before I had to submit to a medical intervention.

Anyway ... I tend to see Christians (and this could apply to other 'faiths' as well) as existing on a spectrum of hoops that one has to jump through before being admitted to the alleged après vie. The number of hoops being directly proportional to the number of people telling you that you are doing your religion the wrong way.

Christianity is a revelation that there is a God who cares and willing to rescue His creations who have gone wayward.
There is one decision to make, and a lifelong journey of spiritual growth to either endure or enjoy (God supplies the fuel, lodging, fresh air, and beautiful sights).

The hoops are created by ourselves who refused to let go of our self-destruct perspective to be replaced by God's life-giving one.

Christianity is barely 2,000 years old. Humans have been around at least 75,000. Like all religions it will come to pass too.

What happened 2,000 years ago is the fulfillment of a promise that was made *long* time before that.
Christianity reveals the plan that has been in conception since before the world was created.

I'm not trying to play "my belief is older than yours" -game. That is both silly and useless.
What I am trying to relay is a message that gets more and more consistent the more I put more thoughts (and time) in it.
It's a surprisingly thought-full message, not the blind-faith kind.