Musings of late...

[Manny]

[VertOlive]

I'm with you on this Manny. But after a day like today in a place like San Bernardino, there's some that need a little tangible encouragement, I think.

[jar]

What's more, why is the proof offered that there is a God always so utterly stupid. That billboard is barely up to the cute kitten standard when it comes to proofs plus it is obvious that the folk posting the billboard are from the proof-texts that take quotes out of context snake oil salesman branch of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.

[fqgouvea]

Ah, we cultish Christians, it's not like there's a two thousand year intellectual tradition or anything.

Main point: that is NOT the definition of faith.

That said, I certainly agree that "proving that god exists" is a silly exercise. It's a little like making a speech to prove language exists.


Fernando Gouvêa -- fqgouvea@roadrunner.com

[Manny]

[fqgouvea]

It's arguably the non-believers' definition, sure. But it's certainly not the main meaning in a Christian context: faith is trust in something, it is trusting yourself to whatever it is you have faith in. The crucial element is not lack of proof, but rather trust.

If you're driving down a road, you entrust your wellbeing to the road makers. In that sense, you have put your faith in them. You probably don't have unassailable proof that the road can be trusted, but that hardly matters.


Fernando Gouvêa -- fqgouvea@roadrunner.com

[Chuasam]

I would definitely like to examine that evidence. Of course it would be subjected to scientific methods.

[henkm]

'Firm belief in something for which there IS proof' would not be faith, it would be knowledge, so I think it is an essential element of the definition. It's just that a believer won't think it important to contemplate the (non)existence of evidence. I think this is neatly illustrated by your road example as well.

[Manny]

So, I read referenced Romans 1:20 from the billboard, and honestly, I wasn't "feelin' it". Pointing out all the things someone is doing wrong is a sure way to turn them off. At least that's what I got out of it.

[Manny]

I was gonna call the number on the billboard, but someone saved me the trouble by posting this YouTube vid...

[jar]

So, I read referenced Romans 1:20 from the billboard, and honestly, I wasn't "feelin' it". Pointing out all the things someone is doing wrong is a sure way to turn them off. At least that's what I got out of it.

The issue is that Romans is a really long letter. In it Paul begins with talking about issues and only during the second half does he go on to talk about what we should do to address the issues; but the Christian Cult of Ignorance quote miners don't read the whole thing, they just take material out of context to suit their own agenda.

But that group doesn't really believe what the Bible says anyway. They claim they do but that is simply lying. Of course they lie to themselves as well as everyone else.

It's funny but they are the very folk Jesus or Paul or Peter or Timothy would have condemned.

[Manny]

I'm with you on this Manny. But after a day like today in a place like San Bernardino, there's some that need a little tangible encouragement, I think.

At Sunday's mass, Father Pat started his homily with a story about a monk and a soldier.
A soldier asks a monk he met to teach him about heaven and hell. The monk replies, "Teach you? You're just a dumb soldier, and not a very good one at that! You're dirty, and a disgrace to that uniform! Get out of my sight!"
Furious, the soldier whips out his pistol, cocks it, and puts it against the monk's head, and says, "Fool of a monk, do you not know who you're talking to? I've killed for less!"
As the soldier's finger quivers on the trigger, the monk calmly looks at the soldier, and quietly says, "That, my friend, is hell."
It takes a moment for the soldier to realize the lesson, and in shame, puts his pistol away-apologizing at the feet of the monk. To which the monk kindly says to him, "And this, is heaven."

This story was originally a Zen parable of a monk and a Samurai warrior, I think; but Father Pat used the soldier adaptation of the parable to illustrate the condition of faith in our world today, which really hasn't changed since Jesus' time.
In his homily, Father Pat, talked about how we are all made in the image of God, and faith teaches us to be in awe of God. And, in light of the horrible events of the past couple of weeks, in Paris and San Bernadino, the debate is really no longer about gun control and/or violence anymore; but about how we as a society seem to be losing the awe of God that is in each of us.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I only got through about half of that video before I had to submit to a medical intervention.

Anyway ... I tend to see Christians (and this could apply to other 'faiths' as well) as existing on a spectrum of hoops that one has to jump through before being admitted to the alleged après vie. The number of hoops being directly proportional to the number of people telling you that you are doing your religion the wrong way.

[penwash]

I would definitely like to examine that evidence. Of course it would be subjected to scientific methods.

I see that you are also putting your faith, not in God, but in scientific methods.

So some of us put our faith in God, and some of us put our faith in science and our reasoning ability to comprehend things.
One thing is consistent, if we, as a human being were to go through the difficulties of life, we have to have faith / belief in something.

[penwash]

I only got through about half of that video before I had to submit to a medical intervention.

Anyway ... I tend to see Christians (and this could apply to other 'faiths' as well) as existing on a spectrum of hoops that one has to jump through before being admitted to the alleged après vie. The number of hoops being directly proportional to the number of people telling you that you are doing your religion the wrong way.

Christianity is a revelation that there is a God who cares and willing to rescue His creations who have gone wayward.
There is one decision to make, and a lifelong journey of spiritual growth to either endure or enjoy (God supplies the fuel, lodging, fresh air, and beautiful sights).

The hoops are created by ourselves who refused to let go of our self-destruct perspective to be replaced by God's life-giving one.

[Chuasam]

I only got through about half of that video before I had to submit to a medical intervention.

Anyway ... I tend to see Christians (and this could apply to other 'faiths' as well) as existing on a spectrum of hoops that one has to jump through before being admitted to the alleged après vie. The number of hoops being directly proportional to the number of people telling you that you are doing your religion the wrong way.

Christianity is a revelation that there is a God who cares and willing to rescue His creations who have gone wayward.
There is one decision to make, and a lifelong journey of spiritual growth to either endure or enjoy (God supplies the fuel, lodging, fresh air, and beautiful sights).

The hoops are created by ourselves who refused to let go of our self-destruct perspective to be replaced by God's life-giving one.

Christianity is barely 2,000 years old. Humans have been around at least 75,000. Like all religions it will come to pass too.

[SeminarianMike]

Faith is faith, I win converts by sharing experience not skepticism and epistemology! Now I share this

[penwash]

I only got through about half of that video before I had to submit to a medical intervention.

Anyway ... I tend to see Christians (and this could apply to other 'faiths' as well) as existing on a spectrum of hoops that one has to jump through before being admitted to the alleged après vie. The number of hoops being directly proportional to the number of people telling you that you are doing your religion the wrong way.

Christianity is a revelation that there is a God who cares and willing to rescue His creations who have gone wayward.
There is one decision to make, and a lifelong journey of spiritual growth to either endure or enjoy (God supplies the fuel, lodging, fresh air, and beautiful sights).

The hoops are created by ourselves who refused to let go of our self-destruct perspective to be replaced by God's life-giving one.

Christianity is barely 2,000 years old. Humans have been around at least 75,000. Like all religions it will come to pass too.

What happened 2,000 years ago is the fulfillment of a promise that was made *long* time before that.
Christianity reveals the plan that has been in conception since before the world was created.

I'm not trying to play "my belief is older than yours" -game. That is both silly and useless.
What I am trying to relay is a message that gets more and more consistent the more I put more thoughts (and time) in it.
It's a surprisingly thought-full message, not the blind-faith kind.

[Manny]

I only got through about half of that video before I had to submit to a medical intervention.

Anyway ... I tend to see Christians (and this could apply to other 'faiths' as well) as existing on a spectrum of hoops that one has to jump through before being admitted to the alleged après vie. The number of hoops being directly proportional to the number of people telling you that you are doing your religion the wrong way.

Hey...wait a sec...EoC got so discombobulated by the video he forgot to refer to himself in the third person!

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I only got through about half of that video before I had to submit to a medical intervention.

Anyway ... I tend to see Christians (and this could apply to other 'faiths' as well) as existing on a spectrum of hoops that one has to jump through before being admitted to the alleged après vie. The number of hoops being directly proportional to the number of people telling you that you are doing your religion the wrong way.

Hey...wait a sec...EoC got so discombobulated by the video he forgot to refer to himself in the third person!

Different forum!

Personally I see Christianity as nothing more than one of the many iterations of earlier mythologies.

What happened 2,000 years ago is the fulfillment of a promise that was made *long* time before that.
Christianity reveals the plan that has been in conception since before the world was created.

I'm not trying to play "my belief is older than yours" -game. That is both silly and useless.
What I am trying to relay is a message that gets more and more consistent the more I put more thoughts (and time) in it.
It's a surprisingly thought-full message, not the blind-faith kind.

What you are actually doing is asserting something as a fact - even though it cannot be shown to be so - and then expecting people to accept it as such.

So, what really happened 2000 years ago was that the need for hope was strong and so some person (or people), drawing on the earlier mythologies, created a New Hope Religion tailored to the people of the day and then peddled it to a highly susceptible population.

The more I put thoughts and time into this the more evident it becomes.

There appears to be a pattern of human behaviour with regard to the rise and fall of religions. It is also worth thinking about the expression 'long term' as most people have no real conception of what this should mean in a Universal sense - certainly 2000 years of inconsistent religious application cannot be considered long term. Buddhism has been going longer, Hinduism longer still, and both still have millions of adherents. How would you interpret that?