'Permanent' Fountain Pen Inks

[Armstrong]

I mostly use Noodler's Bullet Proof inks for that property and because I tend toward more saturated colors. I like the inks and have no gripes about them. I saw someone on the forum, don't remember who, remark there were better choices for the 'permanent' factor in fountain pen inks. That made me curious so here's your chance. What are the 'better choices' for permanent or bullet proof inks? (This isn't a challenge of any sort, just curious.)

[Tiggercat]

I am a huge fan of the Sailor nano inks (black and blue-black.)

[carlos.q]

MB Permanent blue is great and has awesome shading.

[Armstrong]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of blue, black or blue/black. Kind of old hat.

[carlos.q]

If you don't like blue or black inks maybe you can look into the R&K Dokumentus Inks. Besides blue and black they also offer Brown, Green and Magenta. Furthermore, this line of inks conform to the ISO 12757-2 standard for archival quality.
I personally haven't tried these as I'm still having too much fun with MB Permanent Blue!!

[inklord]

R&K Dokumentus series (as mentioned by carlos.q), GvFC inks (after thoroughly dried), R&K "Salix" and "Scabiosa" (which can be mixed with any other R&K ink except "Sepia" for more interesting colors - the color of those will wash away with water, but the iron gall part will remain in grey-black), Montblanc "Permanant Grey".
However, these are suggestions of an almost militant "Anti-Noodler-Guy" ("me"), so, if you are happy with Noodler's inks, I'd stay with those... they are certainly a lot cheaper than the rest!
Personally, I like R&K Scabiosa/Salix mixes.

[bluesea]

If you don't like blue or black inks maybe you can look into the R&K Dokumentus Inks. Besides blue and black they also offer Brown, Green and Magenta. Furthermore, this line of inks conform to the ISO 12757-2 standard for archival quality.
I personally haven't tried these as I'm still having too much fun with MB Permanent Blue!!

Same here (including Permanent Black). The pens I have set up for indelible ink have needlepoint : fine nibs, so my preference leans to ink with good saturation.

[Dreck]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of blue, black or blue/black. Kind of old hat.

As inklord said, if you like Noodler's inks, stick with them. If you don't have a copy of the .pdf of Noodler's Ink Properties, here's a link to it.
http://noodlersink.com/wp-content/up...Properties.pdf

Off the top of my head, I know that #41 Brown has all the properties you prefer, as does El Lawrence (although IMO it looks like greasy swampwater). There are several others that do, too (including my personal favorite, 54th Massachusetts, an "old hat" blue-black )

[Armstrong]

Thanks for the link, though I have that document. I am just getting into the Polar inks, Polar Brown, being my first. I am rather taken with brown ink. I like the shading and how the color looks on yellow paper particularly. Polar's seem to be more penetrating than some, so it takes a thicker, feather resistant paper.

Since my pens are all newer construction and I clean them every couple of fills I have no problems with Noodler's or their Bullet Proof inks. All the Polars are bullet proof rated. But, if I don't clean the pen after a couple of fills it will begin to skip some. I understand that and accept it as a reasonable trade off for the saturation of the colors and the 'wash' resistant properties of the ink. All engineering problem solutions involve trade offs of one kind or another.

[Armstrong]

If you don't like blue or black inks maybe you can look into the R&K Dokumentus Inks. Besides blue and black they also offer Brown, Green and Magenta. Furthermore, this line of inks conform to the ISO 12757-2 standard for archival quality.
I personally haven't tried these as I'm still having too much fun with MB Permanent Blue!!

R&K Dokumentus series (as mentioned by carlos.q), GvFC inks (after thoroughly dried), R&K "Salix" and "Scabiosa" (which can be mixed with any other R&K ink except "Sepia" for more interesting colors

Thank you, those inks do look interesting. It appears some of them have some nice shading properties on the paper. I think I may give some a try. The green looks interesting and the brown. Saying I dislike blue and black would be overstating the case I think. I just am somewhat tired of them. I do use both. But I want to branch out and try other colors. Of the Noodler's lines the Purple Martin, Marine Green, Polar Brown, and Luxury Blue are favorites. I think some of those have varying degrees of permanence. I enjoy using a mix of colors when studying a topic. I'll use one color for most of the text, then change colors for quotes or to highlight some point. Although I left school long ago, I am always a student.

[KKay]

I had looked into these in the past. I am pretty sick of almost all blue and black ink. I am writing in one journal in particular, that I need to be archival quality. (the paper could be Tomoe River, Clairefontaine, or Apica Premium for future purposes) I am worried about the ink I have fading over time, for archival purposes. (to be passed down to my kids, such as genealogy stuff) If the R&K only lasts 50 years, that is not high enough quality to me. I don't know the life of their archival ink. I could use a Sailor ink, but using just black would be soooo boring to me.

If you don't like blue or black inks maybe you can look into the R&K Dokumentus Inks. Besides blue and black they also offer Brown, Green and Magenta. Furthermore, this line of inks conform to the ISO 12757-2 standard for archival quality.
I personally haven't tried these as I'm still having too much fun with MB Permanent Blue!!

[Chemyst]

I am writing in one journal in particular, that I need to be archival quality. (the paper could be Tomoe River, Clairefontaine, or Apica Premium for future purposes) I am worried about the ink I have fading over time, for archival purposes. (to be passed down to my kids, such as genealogy stuff) If the R&K only lasts 50 years, that is not high enough quality to me. I don't know the life of their archival ink. I could use a Sailor ink, but using just black would be soooo boring to me.

You've got a lot of factors to consider. A few thoughts:
1. The archival standard is carbon ink on linen. Anything else is suboptimal.
2. Use is an important consideration. If this notebook is going to spend most of its time closed on a shelf somewhere, then really any ink will do. You can find student cahiers at antique dealers that written with purple washable ink 100 years ago and are perfectly legible. Now, if this notebook is going to be open to oxygen and sunlight (under a glass display case perhaps) then you need to be more concerned with ink choice.
3. Paper choice is probably more important than ink choice. Wood pulp by its nature is less durable than other choices. Also acid concentration, treatments and sizings play a large role in extended paper durability life determination.
4. You mention that carbon ink is too boring. I'd strongly suggest then that an iron gall based ink would be the next best choice. Whether you choose R&K or another maker, all modern iron galls will last a long time. Keep in mind, if durability is absolutely paramount, then you may need to consider using a pigmented ink with dip or technical pen and save your fountain pen writing for more ephemeral topics.

There are a lot of trade offs you can weigh, once you set a couple parameters like "use/handling" and "legible years".

[KKay]

Thank you for the in depth reply. This should never be in a glass display case. But who knows how much time open, it will have. (besides me writing in it of course) I figured I would err on the safe side. The paper I am using right now is Tomoe River paper. But I hope to continue this writing into more than one journal. Those I mentioned just happened to be my top 3 favorites at the moment. I had thought of an iron gall, but was afraid it would clog my pen. I am writing currently on 5mm spaces, which is a little more narrow, than my preference of 6 or 7mm. I have considered a dip pen to test ink. But I doubt if I would use one for writing in a journal. I have hand tremors, and that would make it very difficult. The tremors aren't "bad" most of the time, but they do get progressively worse as I get older. I do not know what a "technical" pen is. I will have to look that up. Thank you for taking the time to reply. I do appreciate this very much.

[Chemyst]

I am rather taken with brown ink. I like the shading and how the color looks on yellow paper particularly.

You might take a look at Pilot Namiki Iroshizuku Tsukushi "Horsetail Brown". GhostPlane mentioned that it has pretty good water resistance. All of the Iroshizuku are good flowing, low maintenance inks.

[Armstrong]

I do Bible study that is, to me, along the lines of your concerns KKay. I still use Noodler's Bullet Proof and Polar inks for that. Mainly because I like the saturation and the cost, along with the permanence. Most other fountain pen inks I have tried have left me a little flat because of they lack that saturation. I have tested Noodler's with household chemicals. While some will wash away, some will not. So I use it. Most people tend to Iron-Gall I think on this forum but I have reservations with it for pen maintenance especially and acidic properties. The only problem I have with Noodler's is that it requires cleaning the pen, with flush, after a couple of fills. Since I use TWSBI 580 and Eco's for my workhorse pens that is quite a bit of ink as compared to say a cartridge pen. So I am happy with that cleaning schedule. The Eco in a 1.1mm stub is such a comfortable pen to me and has a feed designed for a stub so it flows beautifully even with highly saturated inks. I use stubs almost exclusively.

Paper wise the cost of most premium papers is off putting to me. I live on a fixed income due to disability. So I do a lot of experimenting. I have been favorably impressed with Tops Docket and Docket Gold. The gold line is thicker and has more tooth. Docket is 16lb and Gold is 20lb if memory serves. I believe it is supposed to be archive quality but you may want to research that. But for archive I often use HP Laserjet paper of 24lb or greater weight. It is incredibly smooth but the coating does drag the pen a bit. But, that also helps with pen control by the way. My hand shakes occasionally from my medications. It might be something you could try. The Laser is important as it works extremely well with fountain pen ink. The Inkjet by comparison is far too absorbent and will feather badly. So Laserjet not inkjet. The HP 98% white is still one of the best papers I have tried, even compared to the likes of Rhodia. Of course it is plain white paper. But, you could run it through a printer and add lines or a dot grid if you preferred. The HP is Hewlett Packard, not sure of the spelling. Their paper can be bought in 500 or more sheet reams so is on the order of 3 cents a sheet or less.

Thank you all for your replies. I appreciate the open information exchange this forum excels at. That is of course because of the people.

[Dreck]

I do Bible study that is, to me, along the lines of your concerns KKay. *snip* Most people tend to Iron-Gall I think on this forum but I have reservations with it for pen maintenance especially and acidic properties. The only problem I have with Noodler's is that it requires cleaning the pen, with flush, after a couple of fills. *snip*

I tend towards Iron Gall precisely because it tends to bleed through thin Bible paper less than any of my Noodler's inks do (even my beloved 54th Massachusetts). OK, and because it just looks so darned cool. It also bleeds and feathers less when I am making notes in the margins of the cheap, pulpy mass-market paperbacks we're reading in class. I've put IG in an Esterbrook J, in my Noodler's Konrad pens (both ebonite and celluloid), and it's currently in an Airmail eyedropper that has become my daily use pen. While ESSRI gave me some problems in the past (it seems to dry a bit more aggressively), R&K Salix, Diamine Registrar's, and Chesterfield Archival Vault have not. From what I understand, its acidic "nib-eating" properties are grossly exaggerated. I'm not worried about it. If I see a nib disintegrating, I might rethink that position, but so far, so good. The Chesterfield is extremely affordable, and is generally what I use. If you want to try IG, but aren't ready to commit to actually buying any, I'll be more than happy to send a vial or so your way. PM your address to me and let me know what you'd like to try.

[Chemyst]

While ESSRI gave me some problems in the past (it seems to dry a bit more aggressively), R&K Salix, Diamine Registrar's, and Chesterfield Archival Vault have not. From what I understand, its acidic "nib-eating" properties are grossly exaggerated. I'm not worried about it.

I don't think you should be excessively concerned about modern iron gall based inks marketed for fountain pens. A lot of the historical concern, rightly or wrongly, was drawn from experiences using small batch "homebrew" inks and carbon steel dip pen nibs. With modern chemical processes and manufacturing practices, much of that has been ameliorated.

Of course if you are making your own ink from natural products in your neighborhood park and using cheap nibs from SE Asia, then perhaps worry about corrosion is warranted.

Certainly, if you are looking for "Permanent" with a capital "P" ink, you should already be considering dialing up your pen hygiene regimen, regardless of which particular ink you decide upon.

[Armstrong]

Right now I am pretty satisfied with my ink, thanks though. I do want to try some Parker Quink Perm Blue Black which looks more Blue Green to me. Mainly want to try it because it is such a nice shade. I don't mark up paper Bibles much. I do most of my research using Wordsearch study software and written notes.