Pelikan Athens City Series Fountain Pen

[Jon Szanto]

That said, I've realized it was a mistake to include the spiel about where the pen was bought.

Yes, when all else fails, be deceptive. I mean, Chris, you just aren't understanding at all why this has bothered people. Honestly, the more you try to defend your avarice, the more it is going to bother people. Because, you know...

That. That is the image you project, and I think there is a certain trend in society to reject the whole Gordon Gecko "greed is good" thing. Not that I anticipate this denting your pride one bit. And I'd like to make it clear that it is the actions you have taken, and the principle behind them, that bothers me in this instance, and that I have no reason to believe that you are a malicious person or a bad guy. We might have an ok time over an adult beverage in a pub somewhere, but when you go to bat for capitalism over community, it calls into question a few things within the community.

[pajaro]

This might be disrespectful to the seller, but it's a pretty frank discussion, and if it helps a seller realize he might get into trouble asking for a Paypal practice Paypal doesn't allow, that might help the seller. Sometimes frank talk is helpful. The seller in a free economy may ask whatever he wants, but will he get it or have to negotiate a lower price? Who knows?

[penwash]

I am honestly shocked to find this kind of discussion in this forum.

If all Chris has ever done in this forum is selling and never contributed anything else, then I can see the reason to call him out, but not on the principle that he knew something that his potential buyers may not know, then insinuating that he's evil and greedy.

Information or knowledge is valuable. Fair trade has been conducted for thousands of years via the knowledge of where to get goods at lower price and sell it at higher price. All of the vendors of good to excellent standing in the pen community live off the profit that they generated using this very same method. Help me understand how is this singularly different?

DISCLAIMER: I do not know Chris and I have no reason to "defend" him other than this is a simple exercise of the free market principle that should not be condemned in the name of "good will to the community." Not that I have anything against doing good for the community.

In my view, the only reasonable reminders in this thread are Chrissy's caution against the abuse of Paypal Gift feature (I have repeatedly and will continue to decline the "good will" from buyers who offered to pay via PP Gift, because even though I dislike the Paypal "hit", I accept that it is part of the same free market principle).

[Abdulquyyum]

I agree with bluesea and penwash, only mistake I see that Chris did was asking for PayPal gift. I think anyone who wants to buy a pen or for that matter anything has to do some research to see if what they are paying is the best price they are getting. In case unable to decide One can ask any senior member on this forum if the asking price is reasonable.

Believe me I have been burnt before paying more for a pen, and it is a sore feeling but I blame myself. I worked hard to earn that money and I should be responsible enough to check the facts before buying them.

[Laura N]

I don't think there's anything wrong with seeking a profit and providing a service that people want.

That said, I've realized it was a mistake to include the spiel about where the pen was bought.

1. How is it a "service that people want" to snap up a pen intending to resell it for $250 more the minute you receive it? It's not.

That's an especially notable increase when one is a private person, selling outside eBay, and then trying to get around Paypal rules and protection to boot. Because a private seller sells without the guaranty offered by a retailer or professional dealer, and without the Buyer Protection offered by eBay, and, under your original offer's terms, perhaps without even Paypal protection. There is no value added, no special knowledge you've employed or work you've done. You don't even want this thing. It looks like it's just something you want to sell as quickly as possible, with as little responsibility as possible, making as much money as possible. That's certainly not illegal. But it's not a "service" to anyone but yourself.

A "service" would have been to post that "FPH has some great pens for sale right now."

2. Your mistake wasn't boasting. People who know these pens already knew. Newsflash: people saw the original listing, then yours.

3. But hey, I know no one is going to change your mind or values. People are who they are. And you'll certainly find people who are like-minded here. [And, my goodness, it seems you already have.] But I always think it's better to be honest and frank than to coat what one is doing with blather about "service" and "societal good." Or "free market." That brings out the people like me who dislike hypocrisy. Also, a lot of us have taken more than "basic economic courses," so we don't all put our hands over our hearts, hum the national anthem and tear up after hearing the words the "free market."

TLDR? Trying to be a profiteer is not being a hero. Yes, it's one possible type of behavior. You see it a lot during wartime, after natural disasters and under other exigent circumstances. The heroes are the guys helping others.

[Laura N]

I am honestly shocked to find this kind of discussion in this forum.

If all Chris has ever done in this forum is selling and never contributed anything else, then I can see the reason to call him out, but not on the principle that he knew something that his potential buyers may not know, then insinuating that he's evil and greedy.

Information or knowledge is valuable. Fair trade has been conducted for thousands of years via the knowledge of where to get goods at lower price and sell it at higher price. All of the vendors of good to excellent standing in the pen community live off the profit that they generated using this very same method. Help me understand how is this singularly different?

DISCLAIMER: I do not know Chris and I have no reason to "defend" him other than this is a simple exercise of the free market principle that should not be condemned in the name of "good will to the community." Not that I have anything against doing good for the community.

In my view, the only reasonable reminders in this thread are Chrissy's caution against the abuse of Paypal Gift feature (I have repeatedly and will continue to decline the "good will" from buyers who offered to pay via PP Gift, because even though I dislike the Paypal "hit", I accept that it is part of the same free market principle).

He's not a vendor. He's a private seller on an internet forum and you know nothing about him. He bought from the vendor (who offers warranty and return privileges) to immediately resell without such protections at a higher price. He even tried to get someone to buy it (at premium price) with no buyer protection. When FPN apparently made him edit that out of his ad over there, he kept it in over here. Until people complained. He quotes as comparables items sold on eBay, but an eBay purchase gives the buyer not only Ebay's excellent buyer protection but also Paypal's protection (and allows one to use one's credit card for a further layer of protection). And an eBay seller pays fees. He knows this; he seems pretty smart.

Dealers with "excellent standing in the pen community" have reputations and warranties (and often overhead and employees, and always taxes and expenses). That's why they can and must charge more. People who sell on internet forums don't have the same costs, the same warranty and the same indicia of reliabilty, and that's why they generally charge less.

Then there are those who try to have their cake and eat it, too, and some of them do just fine. And some people think that's really cool and want to be like that. But not everyone does. That's all.

He didn't use any advantage in information or knowledge. He just bought a pen faster than other people, some of whom probably had been wanting it for years, and he did so only because he thought he could resell it at a large profit. And knowing that if he didn't -- if he couldn't even get $495 for it -- or a 10 percent profit -- before he had to pay off his credit card, Fountain Pen Hospital would take it back. He has zero risk. It's not even a gamble. Because Fountain Pen Hospital is a real, legitimate and excellent vendor.

I feel really bad for the person who would have wanted that pen at a reasonable price, myself. But I guess I should be thinking, "sucker!" Right?

Hey, though, I think you're the one who thinks I'm a person in "a gang." So I'm sure I'm the wrong one here, and you've already stopped reading.

I sold something (very small, not even a tenth of this price) on FPN a few months ago. The buyer was new and asked "Should I do Friends and Family or Goods and Services?" And here's what I said: "You don't know me, and Friends and Family gives you no protection if I'm not an honest seller or the item doesn't arrive, so you should do Goods and Services." But people with those sort of morals or scruples are obviously not "with it," right? They're the ones who should just shut up. Because they are disrespectful. And don't understand the free market.

PS. - I'm directing this at you because you asked. Not at the seller. The seller didn't actually attack anyone else, and I kind of like that about him, I have to admit.

[heraclitus682]

The seller has been very up front and polite through all this. All he did was try to sell a pen for more than he paid for it. I know I've done it when I've gotten a good deal on ebay. I think most of us have done it. I don't care for sellers asking for paypal gift, but other than that I see no issue from this seller. Plus, we are giving him lots of advertisement as we keep bumping his post to the top.

[migo984]

The seller has been very up front and polite through all this. All he did was try to sell a pen for more than he paid for it. I know I've done it when I've gotten a good deal on ebay. I think most of us have done it. I don't care for sellers asking for paypal gift, but other than that I see no issue from this seller. Plus, we are giving him lots of advertisement as we keep bumping his post to the top.

Sanity, at last. I don't think I've read anything as daft or pompous as the finger-wagging lecturing in this thread. It's just a pen he's trying to make a profit on, not life-saving drugs! You're all informed (mostly) adults - no-one's trying to rob little children of their sweeties. People can buy or not buy - no-one's forcing them to pay more than they're willing to.

[Hawk]

Chris, you found a bargain and wanted to flip the pen within a few days, for a profit. Nothing wrong with that. People all over are in the business doing this.
Why did you post it on this forum? Members, who in the most part, consider each other friends (even if we have never met). People on this forum and other forums sell for the purpose of helping their peers with their need or desire and fill a hole in their collection. Many of these sellers feel good doing this and may take a loss because it meets their plan of moving a pen in order to pay for something else. (You know who you are).
Ebay would have been a better venue where 'buyer beware' is implied and uninformed (and informed) buyers exist. Besides, there are more buyers out there that would assure you of a quicker sale for the price you want. And, as Laura said, they would have protection with the sale (if it were ever needed).
The glass is half full for me. I, for one, have learned a valuable lesson. Buying, even from Senior Members, requires one to do their homework and find out which sellers they can trust. (Other sellers, I don't believe this would apply to you).
I hope you enjoy the Peikan, they are great pens.

[ChrisC]

The seller has been very up front and polite through all this. All he did was try to sell a pen for more than he paid for it. I know I've done it when I've gotten a good deal on ebay. I think most of us have done it. I don't care for sellers asking for paypal gift, but other than that I see no issue from this seller. Plus, we are giving him lots of advertisement as we keep bumping his post to the top.

I've taken the point about not asking for Paypal gift. It won't happen again, and I'd be all for setting an official rule against it.

Regarding profits, economic ideologies, etc, as I've said before, the other posters and I will have to agree to disagree about what is and isn't community oriented.

[penwash]

Hey, though, I think you're the one who thinks I'm a person in "a gang." So I'm sure I'm the wrong one here, and you've already stopped reading.

PS. - I'm directing this at you because you asked. Not at the seller. The seller didn't actually attack anyone else, and I kind of like that about him, I have to admit.

Hi Laura,
My name is Will.
Prior to this conversation, I don't think we ever sent messages directly towards each other.
I did not accuse anyone to be in a "gang." Never have, not in this forum, or any other.
If I had offended you without knowing it, please accept my apology.

But I think you mistake me as someone else.

I respect everyone in the forum as adults who can (and willing to, within reasons) converse reasonably.
I do not believe in ad hominem attack, and as far as I can remember, I did no such thing in this thread.
I simply disagree with the painting of Chris as "evil" and "greedy" just because he is selling something that he owned legally.

Now, to your explanation, I accept and agree that reputable dealers offers warranties and such.
But offering warranties is the choice of the seller, as it is the choice of the buyer to either demand one or be okay without it.

What I'm simply trying to say is this. If Chris was able to sell the pen at the asking price, and the buyer is happy with the pen and his terms, how is that different with buying from FPH or any other vendors? <-- this is a rethoric question, intended to encourage thinking, not trying to fish for answers

[Jon Szanto]

Sanity, at last. I don't think I've read anything as daft or pompous as the finger-wagging lecturing in this thread. It's just a pen he's trying to make a profit on, not life-saving drugs! You're all informed (mostly) adults - no-one's trying to rob little children of their sweeties. People can buy or not buy - no-one's forcing them to pay more than they're willing to.

Who is lecturing who now?

Respectfully,
Jon the Insane

[Jon Szanto]

I simply disagree with the painting of Chris as "evil" and "greedy" just because he is selling something that he owned legally.

Just because you have made a legal sale does not remove the avarice from a particularly egregious transaction. As in this case.

And I'll go on record: I do not believe, for one blessed minute, that anyone who has pronounced this opportunity to be of sound business ethics would not themselves be mightily pissed off had they bought said item, only to find they had just been bent over and ravaged. Just all part of the game, eh, folks?

No, I don't think so.

But, hey, the OP is completely at ease with his stance, and still sees no harm whatsoever. And he'll maximize his profit on the next sucker to come along as soon as that opportunity appears, I have no doubt. Or, maybe I should just say "I have a good suspicion." Then again, past performance is not an indicator of future returns.

[Marsilius]

I've been thinking about this thread and thought I would say something well-intentioned but probably useless. Simply put, on the one hand, someone should be allowed to charge whatever they like of course; on the other, someone else should also be allowed to comment on it.

But I was also thinking about the strong reactions between "capitalism" and "community." I can't speak for Jon of course, but I bet he knows what I mean when I mention how strong the community mentality can be in the professional music world. Yes there are union scales, and yes it is a business. But teachers often teach lessons for free or for almost nothing as "professional courtesy" to starving students. A distinction tends to arise between somebody paying for your services (weddings, etc.) and those people who are part of your inner community. You don't tend to try to "make money" off the latter. There is often an such a strong community ethic in music that some people get upset when they see someone treating it as "just a business."

This may not have any bearing on this thread, and I am not criticizing capitalism by any means, but I am hearing resonances of that music community ethic in Jon's posts.

[inklord]

Sanity, at last. I don't think I've read anything as daft or pompous as the finger-wagging lecturing in this thread. It's just a pen he's trying to make a profit on, not life-saving drugs! You're all informed (mostly) adults - no-one's trying to rob little children of their sweeties. People can buy or not buy - no-one's forcing them to pay more than they're willing to.

Who is lecturing who now?

Respectfully,
Jon the Insane

With regard to "informed" - it was Jon who informed us, at least some of us, by alerting us to such a scandalous conduct in a community of like-interested afficionados. Yesterday I was fortunate enough to shop at a 'fairly local' (1hr 30mins away) brick and mortar store, and nobody there showed undue avarice. Capitalism? I'm mostly OK with that concept, but civility, and restraint of greed are the virtues that make me come back to the marketplace!

[migo984]

Sanity, at last. I don't think I've read anything as daft or pompous as the finger-wagging lecturing in this thread. It's just a pen he's trying to make a profit on, not life-saving drugs! You're all informed (mostly) adults - no-one's trying to rob little children of their sweeties. People can buy or not buy - no-one's forcing them to pay more than they're willing to.

Who is lecturing who now?

Respectfully,
Jon the Insane

Ah the predicted response. (I was always a fan of Mystic Meg* )

Cos I bore easily - yes, another flaw in my character - I'm happy to leave/keep quiet/withdraw and let you to carry on with this daftest of threads.

*Sarcasm seems to be allowed ("respectfully"?) so hopefully I'm OK with that comment.

[penwash]

I simply disagree with the painting of Chris as "evil" and "greedy" just because he is selling something that he owned legally.

Just because you have made a legal sale does not remove the avarice from a particularly egregious transaction. As in this case.

And I'll go on record: I do not believe, for one blessed minute, that anyone who has pronounced this opportunity to be of sound business ethics would not themselves be mightily pissed off had they bought said item, only to find they had just been bent over and ravaged. Just all part of the game, eh, folks?

No, I don't think so.

But, hey, the OP is completely at ease with his stance, and still sees no harm whatsoever. And he'll maximize his profit on the next sucker to come along as soon as that opportunity appears, I have no doubt. Or, maybe I should just say "I have a good suspicion." Then again, past performance is not an indicator of future returns.

Jon,
From all the conversations I had with you both in this forum and outside, I like you and we probably see a lot of things in the same light.
I just wish that you say to Chris something along the lines of: "Come on man, I know where you get this, where's your community spirit?" and leave it at that.
Let the other adults in this group make up their own mind.

But instead you went on with the severity (like "bent over and ravaged" ... really?) that I have never seen someone do to a fellow forum member (maybe I live a sheltered "internet life" ).
Let me ask this, is Chris not part of the community that you defend so strongly?
Is this how a "wayward" member ought to be treated in this "nice" community that is worth defending so strongly?

I think I've said my piece (and peace). I have nothing else to add that will make this thread more ... interesting than it already is.

One thing bugs me: Laura, if you're still reading, did you or did you not mistake me as someone else? I hate the feeling that I have offended someone that much but have no recollection of doing so. (Yes, I know the PM system works, that's my next step if I still haven't heard from her).

[Jon Szanto]

From all the conversations I had with you both in this forum and outside...

Argh.

Well, just to be timely: I just made it home after a long day and saw this. It does give me pause, and I will respond, but it has to wait a while, as I have no time to do so at the moment. But for some to reach out in this way both requires a properly though-out reply, and it also means that you care.

And, well, I have to assess things. I promise to reply to this.

[Woody]

Let's say both parties are correct and call it a day shall we. It's a Canadian response.

[Sandy Fry]

As I said in my previous post. There is no rule against buying a pen and selling it on for a huge, healthy profit. However, as I consider people here to be my " friends " I would never try to gouge that huge profit from them. Selling the pen on that big auction site would have been the way to go to try to get a huge profit.

@Chris...Unfortunately, I think you may have ruined your reputation by trying to gouge your " friends " here in the community. Many people will think twice about buying anything from you here. Is it fair? Probably not. But, was it fair to try and gouge your "friends " here to make a huge profit?

Again, no rule against you making a massive profit. I just don't think this was the place to do it.

I hope that this was just an oversight on your part and we can all get back to normal.

P.S. Wanna buy a Krone Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan LE? Retails at $6500 but I got it for $800...yours for $4500

David

Addition....even made myself chuckle at that one!