Brian Goulet and his recent Q&A "under cutting"

[mhosea]

I too took the time to watch the entire video, some parts of it twice, but if Brian complains about customers seeking the best economic deals

First of all, I like Brian, but I've never considered GPC as a vendor of choice for high-priced pens. I bought from Richard Binder a bunch, and I also bought from Japanese sellers on eBay. I was never that into Pilot pens, but most of my Sailors came to me directly from Japan. But I was able to watch the video without feeling defensive. I think the reason for that is that Brian doesn't actually make the argument that it's the customer's fault. The point of admitting that he tends to shop around on price was to emphasize a non-judgmental point of view ("I'm just like you"). That is to say, he's not there to bust your balls about shopping around for the lowest price. But he goes on to lay out a case for other factors that might be taken into account in the decision-making process other than price. It's a long, rambling response, and he confesses to having some feelings about certain things in spite of the fact that he knows, and accepts, that business is business. We could argue that some of those feelings aren't really "justified", but since when do feelings require justification in order to be felt? Ultimately he argues that it's really up to the manufacturer to police these things, as difficult as that might be. Now, in a response that long and rambling, you can no doubt reach in and pull stuff out of context to call "hypocrisy", but if there's hypocrisy there, it's just the everyday "fat doctor" sort of hypocrisy. He tells you, he tells himself. Maybe neither one of you will ultimately be able to follow that advice, but that doesn't mean the advice is wrong or that he's wrong to offer it.

[TAYLORPUPPY]

I too took the time to watch the entire video, some parts of it twice, but if Brian complains about customers seeking the best economic deals

First of all, I like Brian, but I've never considered GPC as a vendor of choice for high-priced pens. I bought from Richard Binder a bunch, and I also bought from Japanese sellers on eBay. I was never that into Pilot pens, but most of my Sailors came to me directly from Japan. But I was able to watch the video without feeling defensive. I think the reason for that is that Brian doesn't actually make the argument that it's the customer's fault. The point of admitting that he tends to shop around on price was to emphasize a non-judgmental point of view ("I'm just like you"). That is to say, he's not there to bust your balls about shopping around for the lowest price. But he goes on to lay out a case for other factors that might be taken into account in the decision-making process other than price. It's a long, rambling response, and he confesses to having some feelings about certain things in spite of the fact that he knows, and accepts, that business is business. We could argue that some of those feelings aren't really "justified", but since when do feelings require justification in order to be felt? Ultimately he argues that it's really up to the manufacturer to police these things, as difficult as that might be. Now, in a response that long and rambling, you can no doubt reach in and pull stuff out of context to call "hypocrisy", but if there's hypocrisy there, it's just the everyday "fat doctor" sort of hypocrisy. He tells you, he tells himself. Maybe neither one of you will ultimately be able to follow that advice, but that doesn't mean the advice is wrong or that he's wrong to offer it.

This was a very good,well thought out response. However, the one thing that can't be taken out of context is when at an earlier time,he said he had no problem with putting mom & pop out of business. As there's was a dying business model. Now he's lamenting the loss of some sales. That's not such a big deal, but when you start throwing up in your customers faces what you're doing for them and how hard it is and whether or not it's with it to you to continue. That's where I draw the line

[Jon Szanto]

This was a very good,well thought out response. However, the one thing that can't be taken out of context is when at an earlier time,he said he had no problem with putting mom & pop out of business. As there's was a dying business model. Now he's lamenting the loss of some sales. That's not such a big deal, but when you start throwing up in your customers faces what you're doing for them and how hard it is and whether or not it's with it to you to continue. That's where I draw the line

You know, it's all well and good to be anecdotal, and in my early comments I made mention that I thought I remembered Mr. Goulet discussing as much in a general sense. However, you have just attributed to him the statement that he had "no problem with putting mom and pop out of business". I'd really like a source for that, because otherwise it is a pretty damning statement without any evidence whatsoever. I'm happy to form opinions based on what someone says, but not on what someone else says they said.

Please link to a source.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

As I mentioned before, whatever value the Goulet Pen Company, and Brian in the video, thinks that is added has little relevance as I am outside the US. That makes the view much simpler.

[mhosea]

but when you start throwing up in your customers faces what you're doing for them and how hard it is

I'm with you on this point.

[Jon Szanto]

As I mentioned before, whatever value the Goulet Pen Company, and Brian in the video, thinks that is added has little relevance as I am outside the US. That makes the view much simpler.

Couldn't agree more. And while communication on the Internet is global in nature, business isn't so. I'm certain that, while his video goes out in a wide manner, he is probably directing his comments at the U.S. market. There isn't any way, if I lived in an country outside the U.S., that I would see an advantage to purchasing from them, unless they had items I couldn't source elsewhere, as the shipping would certainly be prohibitive.

[JoeFromNashville]

This was a very good,well thought out response. However, the one thing that can't be taken out of context is when at an earlier time,he said he had no problem with putting mom & pop out of business. As there's was a dying business model. Now he's lamenting the loss of some sales. That's not such a big deal, but when you start throwing up in your customers faces what you're doing for them and how hard it is and whether or not it's with it to you to continue. That's where I draw the line

You know, it's all well and good to be anecdotal, and in my early comments I made mention that I thought I remembered Mr. Goulet discussing as much in a general sense. However, you have just attributed to him the statement that he had "no problem with putting mom and pop out of business". I'd really like a source for that, because otherwise it is a pretty damning statement without any evidence whatsoever. I'm happy to form opinions based on what someone says, but not on what someone else says they said.

Please link to a source.

I want to go on record here saying this was not a direct quote. The "quote" you reference is my own language, that I used when trying to summarize a discussion that Brian had on a podcast or video probably three years ago. Of course Brian, the person, doesn't "want" to put "Mom and Pop retailers" out of business; the discussion was that from a business perspective he didn't objectively feel "bad" about it because he believed Brick and mortar stores were pursuing a business model that no longer worked. And honestly, he's right. Many old-school B&M pen dealers were never going to make it long-term. They had too much overhead and rising rents (especially in places like NYC) effectively made their business model obsolete. Again, I don't recall it being said maliciously, but at the time I remember the discussion rubbed me the wrong way. IMHO, "online" is not necessarily "better", and there wasn't a lot of appreciation for the contributions to the community made by brick and mortar retailers who allowed you to try/sample pens in person, etc. Now, given the lower barriers of entry to becoming an online seller with very low overhead, the larger, "established" online sellers are to a certain degree becoming the victims of their own success as they are less able to compete on price. I'd add that Brian is far from the only pen dealer who complains about eBay price competition.

[DPWilkens]

I viewed that Q/A topic with interest when it popped up on my newsfeed. I think there are really two completely different issues here: one is selling high end imported FPs at their msrp, when the msrp in Japan or another country is set lower. That problem should be laid at the feet of the manufacturer though. In a global market there's not much domestic retailers can do about it except to provide great service and speedy, reliable shipping (which Goulet does). The other issue is with Jinhaos and other lower end pens. They simply are overpriced by American retailers. The only way I can see to justify that is for the retailer to provide a replacement, no questions asked, if the pen doesn't work right. I think there are old-school, brick and mortar retailers (the ones old-school enough or out of touch enough not to have an online storefront) who could argue that online retailers like Goulet are undercutting them. There's always a bigger fish.

At any rate, I spread my money around. I've bought pens and accoutrements from several American online retailers, and recommend the good ones to anyone who asks. I also shop on ebay from sellers in China or India and have generally been pleased by the products I get there. I don't lose sleep over any of it.

[jar]

One of the issues as is so often the case is that laws and regulations do not keep up with technology and reality. A great example related to this thread involves Amazon. It is not unusual for manufacturers to set prices for their products based on geographic markets. If a manufacturer sets a higher price for items sold through their US Distributor network that for the same item though their domestic network, generally that is still fair. Anyone that wants to buy at the lower domestic price range would have to also deal with the extra costs and hassle involved in importation. But with the advent of entities like Amazon the situation changed. The seller from the domestic market can list and sell the item at the domestic market price while the seller from the US must list and sell the item at the higher US price.

These are issues that will need to be addressed on a world-wide basis and certainly will be contentious.

[Jon Szanto]

This was a very good,well thought out response. However, the one thing that can't be taken out of context is when at an earlier time,he said he had no problem with putting mom & pop out of business. As there's was a dying business model. Now he's lamenting the loss of some sales. That's not such a big deal, but when you start throwing up in your customers faces what you're doing for them and how hard it is and whether or not it's with it to you to continue. That's where I draw the line

You know, it's all well and good to be anecdotal, and in my early comments I made mention that I thought I remembered Mr. Goulet discussing as much in a general sense. However, you have just attributed to him the statement that he had "no problem with putting mom and pop out of business". I'd really like a source for that, because otherwise it is a pretty damning statement without any evidence whatsoever. I'm happy to form opinions based on what someone says, but not on what someone else says they said.

Please link to a source.

I want to go on record here saying this was not a direct quote...

Well... I am not certain why you are mentioning this when I was referring to TaylorPuppy's message, but it is as I recall it, as well: a non-malicious reference by Brian Goulet as to the current state of brick stores a few years ago. He was acknowledging that online stores had certain financial advantages, *not* that it was his aim to put them out of business, which seemed implied in TaylorPuppy's 'quote'. I don't want to bog down *this* discussion on just a technicality, so I'll just move on from here.

[TSherbs]

I want to go on record here saying this was not a direct quote. The "quote" you reference is my own language, that I used when trying to summarize a discussion that Brian had on a podcast or video probably three years ago. Of course Brian, the person, doesn't "want" to put "Mom and Pop retailers" out of business; the discussion was that from a business perspective he didn't objectively feel "bad" about it because he believed Brick and mortar stores were pursuing a business model that no longer worked. And honestly, he's right. Many old-school B&M pen dealers were never going to make it long-term. They had too much overhead and rising rents (especially in places like NYC) effectively made their business model obsolete. Again, I don't recall it being said maliciously, but at the time I remember the discussion rubbed me the wrong way. IMHO, "online" is not necessarily "better", and there wasn't a lot of appreciation for the contributions to the community made by brick and mortar retailers who allowed you to try/sample pens in person, etc. Now, given the lower barriers of entry to becoming an online seller with very low overhead, the larger, "established" online sellers are to a certain degree becoming the victims of their own success as they are less able to compete on price. I'd add that Brian is far from the only pen dealer who complains about eBay price competition.

Furthermore, I doubt it that Mr. Goulet, or any other retailer, is vetting his customers in order to minimize the impact his new customers are having on those vendors that they move on from. In other words, my guess is that gouletpens.com will take any customers from anywhere with any prior retail experience in pens and sell them as much as they can for as long as they can without regard to the financial consequence on any other vendor or economic consequence on the economy or pen-producers (they don't carry all pen brands). I have written them about reducing their packaging waste in plastic to reduce the toxic waste stream, for example, and was told that it was not economically viable for them.

earth: 0

gouletpens.com: 1

[Empty_of_Clouds]

When I ordered my TWSBI 580AL it came in it's own manufacturer's box, which was wrapped with a single piece of bubble-wrap that only just went around the pen once, and then placed in the shipping box. That was it for packaging. Hardly excessive, in fact barely adequate really.

[catbert]

Bear in mind that I am not in the US, so the Goulet Pen Company is just one of many online sellers to me, and their service provision is of little relevance. In this respect, and measured against the reputable part of the internet market, the Goulets are not competitive in the slightest. That is, they offer nothing more for their extra cost. If you live in the US then your perspective will be a bit different.

Their online comparison tools remain useful and relevant outside the US. Some appreciate a well-packed shipment with a personal touch.

I have written them about reducing their packaging waste in plastic to reduce the toxic waste stream, for example, and was told that it was not economically viable for them.

earth: 0

gouletpens.com: 1

Can consumers in a global economy really play the environmental card, given the impact of air freight? Vintage-pen-buying locavores excepted, perhaps.

[ChrisC]

Their online comparison tools remain useful and relevant outside the US. Some appreciate a well-packed shipment with a personal touch.

I have written them about reducing their packaging waste in plastic to reduce the toxic waste stream, for example, and was told that it was not economically viable for them.

earth: 0

gouletpens.com: 1

Can consumers in a global economy really play the environmental card, given the impact of air freight? Vintage-pen-buying locavores excepted, perhaps.

The pen industry's (talking about fountain pens only) impact on the environment is probably negligible. Those planes with our international packages would be flying either way. I doubt we even make up 0.001% of the volume of air freight.

[TSherbs]

When I ordered my TWSBI 580AL it came in it's own manufacturer's box, which was wrapped with a single piece of bubble-wrap that only just went around the pen once, and then placed in the shipping box. That was it for packaging. Hardly excessive, in fact barely adequate really.

There are alternatives to bubble wrap.

[TSherbs]

I have written them about reducing their packaging waste in plastic to reduce the toxic waste stream, for example, and was told that it was not economically viable for them.

earth: 0

gouletpens.com: 1

Can consumers in a global economy really play the environmental card, given the impact of air freight? Vintage-pen-buying locavores excepted, perhaps.

Yes, consumers can care about and vote with their dollars any way they want (if that is what you mean by "card"). And yes, production, shipping, transportation, and disposal methods ALL contribute to the waste product.

Reduce (not always "eliminate"), re-use, recycle.

[catbert]

Their online comparison tools remain useful and relevant outside the US. Some appreciate a well-packed shipment with a personal touch.

I have written them about reducing their packaging waste in plastic to reduce the toxic waste stream, for example, and was told that it was not economically viable for them.

earth: 0

gouletpens.com: 1

Can consumers in a global economy really play the environmental card, given the impact of air freight? Vintage-pen-buying locavores excepted, perhaps.

The pen industry's (talking about fountain pens only) impact on the environment is probably negligible. Those planes with our international packages would be flying either way. I doubt we even make up 0.001% of the volume of air freight.

Yup, the impact of our niche is negligible by any measure, which was kind of my point - and why I said 'consumers'. Bashing Goulet for lack of green cred ignores the far greater effects of our other buying.

Air freight being arguably more damaging than mostly recyclable packing material was the other point.


And now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion ...

[TSherbs]

Bashing Goulet for lack of green cred ignores the far greater effects of our other buying.

I "ignored" nothing. I was pointing out how, as a typical retailer, gouletpens.com puts their own costs and profits ahead of some other concerns, from the plight of other vendors they might lure clients away from to the "cost" to our landfills (or oceans or atmosphere after incineration) that their packaging decisions might have.

[Lady Onogaro]

I do remember people asking about whether Goulet would take returns on the sample bottles, and they said they did not--that it was not cost-efficient to them and that we should recycle them. I can't see how it would not be cost-efficient for them to take the bottles back. I would send mine and see mine re-used rather than throw them into the recycling bin, even if our recycling team does send them on to be recycled.

[mhosea]

I can't see how it would not be cost-efficient for them to take the bottles back.

Having cleaned a lot of them and reused them for my own purposes, I wouldn't wish for that as a daily task, especially if trying to clean them to like-new condition. Some inks simply don't permit that, even if using harsh chemicals.