On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community

[Hawk]

Let's see: the suit by MB it has the exclusive right to use triple cap bands (!!), for displaying a MB pen with a non-MB overlay, the suit against Cross about refills...

MB is no stranger to litigation. If you think that a hue and cry from the pen community provides immunity to suit you are naive.

And, on another note, you can see that the subject of the MB vs Roger Cromwell litigation FPN was raised by Don Lavin, the thread paused for review, and then re-opened for comment. After the suit was thoroughly discussed, and the case was settled the thread was closed.

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/fo...-by-montblanc/

gary [/QUOTE]

Does anyone know the outcome of the case?

[Farmboy]

Yes. We mentioned it above. It was expensive to get the charges dropped.

[Sandy Fry]

I still don't get what all the fuss is about. If you don't like FPN then just don't go there!

It reminds me of when I was a kid. Always spent the entire day outside with my friends playing soccer. Every now and again an argument would break out and then the inevitable would happen...the offended kid would say " I am going home and it's my ball and I am taking it home with me! ". This of course ruined it for everyone but there was an easy solution...go get another ball! Did the kid who took the ball away ever get to play with us again? Of course he did. We all make mistakes right? Should we just all vilify the FPN owner for running things the way he sees fit for his business?

The owner at FPN can do as he pleases. Again, if you don't like his practices just don't go there. I still go there. I still gain some knowledge there. I really don't care how the owner runs his forum. Don't know him. Won't ever meet him. We won't ever be friends. I really don't care if I ever get banned from there, or here for that matter, as this is a "hobbyist" forum for pens for goodness sake. This is not a political arena and whatever goes on at FPN or FPGeeks is not going to affect my life in the slightest little bit.

As an aside. We are on 30+ pages of this and still the solution seems simple to me. If you don't like the business practices at FPN don't go there. Problem solved!

David

Well 660+ post and 23,000+ views should answer your doubts about the interest in the topic, and you just posted in it as well....

Didn't say it wasn't an interesting topic. Just wondered what all the fuss is about. Again, simple solution. Just don't go to FPN if you don't like it there.

David

[SIR]

Just wondered what all the fuss is about. Again, simple solution. Just don't go to FPN if you don't like it there.

And as simply as you put that, I will simply add this; since FPN actively counters ANY criticism against it, and as it isn't the only pen enthusiasts forum to choose from, other potential and existing users should at least be able to make an informed decision as to where they spend their time, therefore, this and other records now exist on the internet to highlight their particular attitude towards customer service.

[stub]

no.

[pengeezer]

In your opinion....I find the comparison quiet funny....and to the point. That point is that commonly accepted rights in both places don't exist and both run in a dictatorial style. Those very rights you and I have in our everyday life like the right to question a decision. Wim ends many PMs with "no discussion will be entered into ( or like)"..... You can defend Wim as much as you like but being blind to the obvious defies belief.

What's wrong with this approach to the rules? I have the same approach in my classroom: my rules are not open to debate except from my superior. I give my students who question them one polite reminder, and if they persist I remove them from my classroom, especially if they are not polite or are questioning a rule that has been reinforced several times already. It is not fair minded or reasonable to term this "dictatorial." Households and schools and churches and villages have always had rules and expectations like this. It is not "dictatorial."

Even the best teacher makes mistakes. Putting ones self on a level of "I don't make a mistake" or not admitting
to making mistakes does not endear the students to the teacher; rather like a parent that admits to their
children that they made a mistake--that endears the student to the teacher. BTW,nothing wrong with
having rules in a classroom;they are necessary as a foundation and I think that the students expect that.
Being inflexible with the rules in an "across-the-board" manner,however,is indicative of a dictatorial `tude.



John

Rules are meant to be "across the board." That is what makes them fair and just rather than capricious and unjust.

Point is,not everything is black and white as you would like it. My emphasis was not so much on the
need for rules,but on the fact that students and teachers are human and make mistakes.
You can choose to ignore that point,but that just indicates your humanity.



John

[RNHC]

Pelikan isn't overly ornate and busy. They are coming out of their conservative designs with some of their new pens while retaining some conservative elements. Italian pens may be more like what you are refering to.

I have to revisit Pelikan. Their designs were a bit staid like Japanese. I think Waterman has some beautiful contemporary design pens. Lamy also has some wonderfully designed pens (not necessarily fountain pen) as well. Overly ornate and busy designs are not limited to Italian pens. Montblanc (especially LE pens) and English pens like Yard-O-Lead also suffer from it.

[TSherbs]

In your opinion....I find the comparison quiet funny....and to the point. That point is that commonly accepted rights in both places don't exist and both run in a dictatorial style. Those very rights you and I have in our everyday life like the right to question a decision. Wim ends many PMs with "no discussion will be entered into ( or like)"..... You can defend Wim as much as you like but being blind to the obvious defies belief.

What's wrong with this approach to the rules? I have the same approach in my classroom: my rules are not open to debate except from my superior. I give my students who question them one polite reminder, and if they persist I remove them from my classroom, especially if they are not polite or are questioning a rule that has been reinforced several times already. It is not fair minded or reasonable to term this "dictatorial." Households and schools and churches and villages have always had rules and expectations like this. It is not "dictatorial."

Even the best teacher makes mistakes. Putting ones self on a level of "I don't make a mistake" or not admitting
to making mistakes does not endear the students to the teacher; rather like a parent that admits to their
children that they made a mistake--that endears the student to the teacher. BTW,nothing wrong with
having rules in a classroom;they are necessary as a foundation and I think that the students expect that.
Being inflexible with the rules in an "across-the-board" manner,however,is indicative of a dictatorial `tude.



John

Rules are meant to be "across the board." That is what makes them fair and just rather than capricious and unjust.

Point is,not everything is black and white as you would like it. My emphasis was not so much on the
need for rules,but on the fact that students and teachers are human and make mistakes.
You can choose to ignore that point,but that just indicates your humanity.



John

Of course people make mistakes. I don't see how anyone here or at FPN has ignored this fact of existence. Sandy Fry included this point in his analogy above, which I though was quite apt.

Persons being suspended or banned has been a practice at every forum I have joined, including this one. I have been "expelled" from two, and I deserved it both times: I violated the rules after I had been reminded of the rules and warned (I regret my words and have never tried to return). Sometimes members post things so egregious that they don't even get a warning: summary banishment. This seems entirely appropriate, and I, for one, don't question the values or motives of the moderators who have to deal with all of the vulgarity and ill-will and ignorance and mistake-making that the rest of us publish on their threads. God knows I would never volunteer to do it.

[pengeezer]

In your opinion....I find the comparison quiet funny....and to the point. That point is that commonly accepted rights in both places don't exist and both run in a dictatorial style. Those very rights you and I have in our everyday life like the right to question a decision. Wim ends many PMs with "no discussion will be entered into ( or like)"..... You can defend Wim as much as you like but being blind to the obvious defies belief.

What's wrong with this approach to the rules? I have the same approach in my classroom: my rules are not open to debate except from my superior. I give my students who question them one polite reminder, and if they persist I remove them from my classroom, especially if they are not polite or are questioning a rule that has been reinforced several times already. It is not fair minded or reasonable to term this "dictatorial." Households and schools and churches and villages have always had rules and expectations like this. It is not "dictatorial."

Even the best teacher makes mistakes. Putting ones self on a level of "I don't make a mistake" or not admitting
to making mistakes does not endear the students to the teacher; rather like a parent that admits to their
children that they made a mistake--that endears the student to the teacher. BTW,nothing wrong with
having rules in a classroom;they are necessary as a foundation and I think that the students expect that.
Being inflexible with the rules in an "across-the-board" manner,however,is indicative of a dictatorial `tude.



John

Rules are meant to be "across the board." That is what makes them fair and just rather than capricious and unjust.

Point is,not everything is black and white as you would like it. My emphasis was not so much on the
need for rules,but on the fact that students and teachers are human and make mistakes.
You can choose to ignore that point,but that just indicates your humanity.



John

Of course people make mistakes. I don't see how anyone here or at FPN has ignored this fact of existence. Sandy Fry included this point in his analogy above, which I though was quite apt.

Persons being suspended or banned has been a practice at every forum I have joined, including this one. I have been "expelled" from two, and I deserved it both times: I violated the rules after I had been reminded of the rules and warned (I regret my words and have never tried to return). Sometimes members post things so egregious that they don't even get a warning: summary banishment. This seems entirely appropriate, and I, for one, don't question the values or motives of the moderators who have to deal with all of the vulgarity and ill-will and ignorance and mistake-making that the rest of us publish on their threads. God knows I would never volunteer to do it.

Then how do you explain how a member here(previous member there) can be banned for just asking
a question about a "taboo" subject? This is the kind of thing that some of us repeatedly try to warn
others about--the capricious and uneven nature of Wim & Co. to present a facade of all sunshine and
roses while shutting down anything that would question his motives. A good leader disciplines by degree;
not by heavy-handed tactics.


I think Hugh's answer in post #681 sums it up rather well.



John

[TSherbs]

Then how do you explain how a member here(previous member there) can be banned for just asking
a question about a "taboo" subject? This is the kind of thing that some of us repeatedly try to warn
others about--the capricious and uneven nature of Wim & Co. to present a facade of all sunshine and
roses while shutting down anything that would question his motives. A good leader disciplines by degree;
not by heavy-handed tactics.


I think Hugh's answer in post #681 sums it up rather well.



John

I can't explain something that I know nothing about. But is seems to me that one should not ask questions on forums about "taboo" subjects, whatever they might be.

[HughC]

Then how do you explain how a member here(previous member there) can be banned for just asking
a question about a "taboo" subject? This is the kind of thing that some of us repeatedly try to warn
others about--the capricious and uneven nature of Wim & Co. to present a facade of all sunshine and
roses while shutting down anything that would question his motives. A good leader disciplines by degree;
not by heavy-handed tactics.


I think Hugh's answer in post #681 sums it up rather well.



John

I can't explain something that I know nothing about. But is seems to me that one should not ask questions on forums about "taboo" subjects, whatever they might be.

But you need to know it's a taboo subject before you ask the question. As I said before an innocent mistake was made by poster and they got kicked off......no warning, no communication and not a person with a troublesome history either.....

[Farmboy]

I have been critical of FPN, I have not been banned. I have had disagreements with the Admin and Moderators on occasion, I have not been banned. I do not necessarily agree with all the actions of FPNs management, I have not been banned.

I do have a nice collection of moderation merit badges. Most I think we're earned fairly.

Perhaps it is the approach. Starting a dialogue with "what kind of dumb ass are you that..." will likely result in a different response than "can you let me know what I said that..."

Back to hunting for that Vacuum Filler nib I've been saving for a while.

Good pen hunting-

FB

[Farmboy]

I forgot to ask for the list of Taboo Subjects.

(I see a merit badge challenge.)

FB

[RNHC]

I forgot to ask for the list of Taboo Subjects.

(I see a merit badge challenge.)

FB

Yes, please do and report back. Then, as an experiment, all of us, who still maintain FPN membership, should pick a taboo question; and randomly disperse into different subforums (moderated by different moderators) of FPN and ask the taboo question. Then we'd see whether the response moderation is applied equally or whether the responses would be different depending on who the moderator is.

[pajaro]

I don't have any trouble with FPN, except that they banned some members whose posts I liked to read.

[TSherbs]

I forgot to ask for the list of Taboo Subjects.

(I see a merit badge challenge.)

FB

Yes, please do and report back. Then, as an experiment, all of us, who still maintain FPN membership, should pick a taboo question; and randomly disperse into different subforums (moderated by different moderators) of FPN and ask the taboo question. Then we'd see whether the response moderation is applied equally or whether the responses would be different depending on who the moderator is.

Don't wait, here's your chance: Wim's offer to take your questions to the CEO of Montblanc

[RNHC]

Don't wait, here's your chance: Wim's offer to take your questions to the CEO of Montblanc

Oh, no. The point of the exercise is to see if the moderation is performed by all FPN moderators on a single consistent standard. If a violation is detected, all moderators should react in the same manner. If there isn't a consistent response but varies by who the moderator is and/or who the poster is, then FPN's moderation is not neutral but prejudicial and arbitrary.

[TSherbs]

Don't wait, here's your chance: Wim's offer to take your questions to the CEO of Montblanc

Oh, no. The point of the exercise is to see if the moderation is performed by all FPN moderators on a single consistent standard. If a violation is detected, all moderators should react in the same manner. If there isn't a consistent response but varies by who the moderator is and/or who the poster is, then FPN's moderation is not neutral but prejudicial and arbitrary.

I thought Wim's thread would be a great opportunity to have him convey a question from this thread directly to the CEO of Montblanc. And perhaps challenge Wim's notion of enforcement of taboo subjects. It's a golden two-fer! Others of you can post something objectionable (it would have to be the same objectionable phrase, wouldn't it?) in other threads to carry out this social "experiment."

[Farmboy]

Don't wait, here's your chance: Wim's offer to take your questions to the CEO of Montblanc

Oh, no. The point of the exercise is to see if the moderation is performed by all FPN moderators on a single consistent standard. If a violation is detected, all moderators should react in the same manner. If there isn't a consistent response but varies by who the moderator is and/or who the poster is, then FPN's moderation is not neutral but prejudicial and arbitrary.

I think you are on to something here. You propose that moderation happens by multiple people and not all moderation is done by Wim. Novel. I have suggested this in the past but the idea has not been well received.

[TSherbs]

I think you are on to something here. You propose that moderation happens by multiple people and not all moderation is done by Wim. Novel. I have suggested this in the past but the idea has not been well received.

Clearly there are other mods, but perhaps all expulsions/suspensions must be centrally approved.