On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community

[Jon Szanto]

I will certainly reserve judgement until I read Part Two of the article, but this is some serious stuff:

The Craven Submission of the Fountain Pen Network

[carlc]

Cough <Conway Stewart> cough

Doesn't surprise me but it is a very sad affair for both parties.

[Dreck]

Huh. I don't go there, apart from rare forays when a search for information provides a hit. I read, close the tab, and end up back here with the same or more complete information than I got there. Heavy-handed mods with Chihuahua syndrome and axes to grind chased me away a couple years ago.

[pengeezer]

Definitely serious....can't help but wonder what Wim is getting for complying with MB. Thinking out loud,but
it's the most obvious point--I don't think he's doing it for nothing. I daresay that MB will provide a reply
that isn't couched in smoke and mirrors.


John

[jar]

Blown totally out of proportion. MB has always tried to keep stuff secret and all FPN did was agree to not post material MB asked not to be posted. No force. No threats. Just polite requests.

Bunch of whiners getting their diapers in a wad.

[HughC]

Given the now very commercial aspect of FPN there's every chance MB and FPN have a financial arrangement, one that benefits Wim ( who probably makes a reasonable bit out of FPN) and MB in showcasing their product in a good light. Money dictates what stays or goes. Is it right or wrong ? There's nothing wrong with Wim running FPN with an eye to profit, there's nothing wrong with him moderating as he pleases because he owns FPN. The error is in users thinking it's a fair and open/unbiased forum, it isn't.

Regards
Hugh

[katherine]

One one hand... I think it's nice that some part of the internet may respect certain content-creator's (in this case... pen creators?) wishes. But on the other, it is really strange to me how FPN protects vendors in the industry.

I had the same experience as the author of being interested in a Minuskin pen, doing some Googling, then ultimately being not particularly happy with the experience. (It wasn't terrible, after a little bit of back and forth Greg let me return the pen.)

[pengeezer]

Cough <Conway Stewart> cough

Doesn't surprise me but it is a very sad affair for both parties.

I was going to add CS to my comment,but decided to hold off. Nevertheless,your addition fits.


John

[pengeezer]

Given the now very commercial aspect of FPN there's every chance MB and FPN have a financial arrangement, one that benefits Wim ( who probably makes a reasonable bit out of FPN) and MB in showcasing their product in a good light. Money dictates what stays or goes. Is it right or wrong ? There's nothing wrong with Wim running FPN with an eye to profit, there's nothing wrong with him moderating as he pleases because he owns FPN. The error is in users thinking it's a fair and open/unbiased forum, it isn't.

Regards
Hugh

+1


John

[Jd16]

Blown totally out of proportion. MB has always tried to keep stuff secret and all FPN did was agree to not post material MB asked not to be posted. No force. No threats. Just polite requests.

Bunch of whiners getting their diapers in a wad.

Hey jar, you're mistaken. This is not about FPN agreeing not to post material, its about FPN deleting material which has already been posted -- effectively censoring the free and legal speech of its users. You might not think of that as much of an issue but obviously the community does: the blog post has more than 1500 views (in less than 24 hours) and it's already being discussed right across the community -- here, reddit, twitter, Facebook, Slack rooms, and at the LA show. If the mods hadn't shut down the post, it'd be discussion at FPN too. Just because you don't like the discussion doesn't mean the topic shouldn't be discussed.

Now, I always had the impression that Americans held the right to free speech as being sacrosanct. It's interesting to see an American -- a Texan, no less -- so untroubled by censorship. Then again, this is a Texan who quotes himself three times in his own signature and is perhaps more interested in his own speech than that of others.

[jar]

Blown totally out of proportion. MB has always tried to keep stuff secret and all FPN did was agree to not post material MB asked not to be posted. No force. No threats. Just polite requests.

Bunch of whiners getting their diapers in a wad.

Hey jar, you're mistaken. This is not about FPN agreeing not to post material, its about FPN deleting material which has already been posted -- effectively censoring the free and legal speech of its users. You might not think of that as much of an issue but obviously the community does: the blog post has more than 1500 views (in less than 24 hours) and it's already being discussed right across the community -- here, reddit, twitter, Facebook, Slack rooms, and at the LA show. If the mods hadn't shut down the post, it'd be discussion at FPN too. Just because you don't like the discussion doesn't mean the topic shouldn't be discussed.

Now, I always had the impression that Americans held the right to free speech as being sacrosanct. It's interesting to see an American -- a Texan, no less -- so untroubled by censorship. Then again, this is a Texan who quotes himself three times in his own signature and is perhaps more interested in his own speech than that of others.

Sorry but it seems you have no idea of what the Right to Free Speech even entails.

Free speech does not mean anyone can say anything they want anywhere they want. But ignorance of that fact seems frighteningly common these days just as the other utter nonsense so often spouted on the web is common.

I have no issue with the decision at FPN nor with folk expressing their personal views, however ignorant and uninformed they might be in other venues. I support their right to say such stuff in venues where it is appropriate. But I also have the right to point out that it is whining over nothing.

That does not change the facts that it has been blown totally out of proportion and that folk are just whining infants with their diapers in a wad.

As to FPN deleting posts? Yup, happens, has happened in the past and likely will happen in the future. In fact some of my posts have been deleted over there.

But I understand that I do not have an unlimited Right to Free Speech in many venues. If I come to your house and say stuff you dislike I understand you have every right to toss my sorry ass out. On an internet forum my Right of Free Speech is limited to whatever extent the owners and administrators of the forum decide.

And that is how it should be. They should have the right to censure any speech that is on their site to any extent they wish.

[stub]

I have never been a member of a forum I disliked more and which was more unevenly and eccentrically moderated than the FPN.

Totally hamfisted moderation. Warnings and bans for seemingly no reason, but other blatant infractions just left to stand. I received a warning based on a wild insane reading of a thread, with sentiments attributed to me that I wasn't even close to saying or implying. Some of the mods there seem to have reading comprehension issues. Totally bonkers, arbitrary, plus the software is a disaster, slow loading, lots of down time, and the classifieds (the one reason to check that board daily) have been ruined for months on end by one user whose turned it into his own private store front.

However, this response is baffling to me. I am pretty sure the US constitution was not addressing privately owned and registered internet forums when talking about a free press. Most forums are moderated and awful moderation (an FPN specialty) is not censorship. A forum is more like private property where the owner gets to set the rules. I think you need to think about censorship and the US constitution and how that differs from an internet forum. This is a weird false equivalency that is trotted out over and over again. Wim is free to run the FPN as craptacularly as he wants. AND CONGRATS ON DOING A BANG UP JOB OF THAT. haha.

Edited to add: [Nevertheless, I largely agree with the posted article from peneconomics linked above]

Hey jar, you're mistaken. This is not about FPN agreeing not to post material, its about FPN deleting material which has already been posted -- effectively censoring the free and legal speech of its users. You might not think of that as much of an issue but obviously the community does: the blog post has more than 1500 views (in less than 24 hours) and it's already being discussed right across the community -- here, reddit, twitter, Facebook, Slack rooms, and at the LA show. If the mods hadn't shut down the post, it'd be discussion at FPN too. Just because you don't like the discussion doesn't mean the topic shouldn't be discussed.

Now, I always had the impression that Americans held the right to free speech as being sacrosanct. It's interesting to see an American -- a Texan, no less -- so untroubled by censorship. Then again, this is a Texan who quotes himself three times in his own signature and is perhaps more interested in his own speech than that of others.

[Jon Szanto]

Hey jar, you're mistaken. [snip] Just because you don't like the discussion doesn't mean the topic shouldn't be discussed.

I can already tell that my good friend Jar and I disagree on some of the main points in play, but nowhere in what he has said indicated that he doesn't like the discussion or that it shouldn't be discussed. You are making that up out of thin air. He may very well think all of this is lame, but I am certain he is behind everyone's right to discuss it.

[Sandy Fry]

Dunno what all the fuss is about. Comments were posted. MB asked politely for them to be taken down. FPN complied.

Also, as to the right of Freedom of Speech for all us Americans, isn't FPN based in Europe?

David

[carlc]

Definitely serious....can't help but wonder what Wim is getting for complying with MB. Thinking out loud,but
it's the most obvious point--I don't think he's doing it for nothing. I daresay that MB will provide a reply
that isn't couched in smoke and mirrors.


John

Actually I suspect that the opposite is true in this case.

From the tone of things said in the FPN thread it looks like Wim is responding to pressure, not incentive.

The FPN relationship with manufacturers and retailers/service providers in terms of censorship of negative posts has always struck me as a disservice to the community because it isn't obvious to the reader. Thus as Dr Deans notes the average punter can not get a clear picture of a service provider (for instance) due to the rules on FPN.

Even if you are aware of the rules it is not possible to know if feedback is routinely positive due to a lack of negative experiences or a lack of negative feedback.

[Jon Szanto]

Dunno what all the fuss is about. Comments were posted. MB asked politely for them to be taken down. FPN complied.

Why should a business that has no connection to a site that I contribute to have a power over whether or not my contributions are summarily removed? Fuck Montblanc.

[Chrissy]

Dunno what all the fuss is about. Comments were posted. MB asked politely for them to be taken down. FPN complied.

Also, as to the right of Freedom of Speech for all us Americans, isn't FPN based in Europe?

David

Yes, the Netherlands I believe.

[KBeezie]

It doesn't surprise me one bit considering the stuff they normally do for vendor members of the forums. I was once in an argument with someone who counts as a vendor on there when there was a petty debate of 'safe' brands of silicone grease, I was able to find the manufacture specs proving him wrong, but then I was banned for a few days and the moderators not only removed my comments but also edited out the incorrect information from his post to make it seem like he didn't say anything contradictory at all (and it was mod edited because it didn't have an 'edited flag').

Not to say they can't do it, but it does raise some ethical questions.

[nusiax]

Well I am deleting my access to FPN. I honestly thought it was a community of like minded individuals sharing their experiences and desires as we lust over the latest fountain pen news.

I love Montblanc. I currently have 3 of them. But pushing to stop discussion of their pens is a strong move and will be in my mind as I look at future pen purchases.

I can see asking professional writers to hold off on a review until release. But to delete posts of average individual discussing a topic is a bit too far

Discussion forums to me are people sitting around a fire chatting about topics.

But if one person is going to ban a topic for others sitting around the fire. By saying it is his fire. Then it is time to find a new fire freely open to discuss the topics I like.

So good bye FPN. You will survive because people lack conviction. But diehards will move own. This losing substance and respectability

[Empty_of_Clouds]

So good bye FPN. You will survive because people lack conviction. But diehards will move own. This losing substance and respectability

[sic]

Bit melodramatic there.

The reality is that I (for one) find both FPN and FPG to be useful sources of friendship, information and help in their own ways, and frankly speaking there are far more important things in life to get het up about than what someone may or may not be able to say on a minority interest forum.

You make your choices to suit yourself, but please do not presume to label those of us who make different choices.