I will certainly reserve judgement until I read Part Two of the article, but this is some serious stuff:
The Craven Submission of the Fountain Pen Network
On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
I will certainly reserve judgement until I read Part Two of the article, but this is some serious stuff:
The Craven Submission of the Fountain Pen Network
"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin
Chrissy (February 15th, 2016), Haefennasiel (February 19th, 2016), HughC (February 14th, 2016), Kaputnik (February 14th, 2016), Manny (March 7th, 2016), pengeezer (February 14th, 2016), ppmiranda (February 15th, 2016), reprieve (February 15th, 2016), TheInkluminati (February 14th, 2016)
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
Cough <Conway Stewart> cough
Doesn't surprise me but it is a very sad affair for both parties.
Annie (February 18th, 2016)
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
I was going to add CS to my comment,but decided to hold off. Nevertheless,your addition fits.Originally Posted by carlc
John
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
Huh. I don't go there, apart from rare forays when a search for information provides a hit. I read, close the tab, and end up back here with the same or more complete information than I got there. Heavy-handed mods with Chihuahua syndrome and axes to grind chased me away a couple years ago.
Online arguments are a lot like the Rocky Horror Picture Show.
As soon as the audience begins to participate, any actual content is lost in the resulting chaos and cacophony.
At that point, all you can do is laugh and enjoy the descent into debasement.
Robert (February 15th, 2016)
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
Definitely serious....can't help but wonder what Wim is getting for complying with MB. Thinking out loud,but
it's the most obvious point--I don't think he's doing it for nothing. I daresay that MB will provide a reply
that isn't couched in smoke and mirrors.
John
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
Actually I suspect that the opposite is true in this case.
From the tone of things said in the FPN thread it looks like Wim is responding to pressure, not incentive.
The FPN relationship with manufacturers and retailers/service providers in terms of censorship of negative posts has always struck me as a disservice to the community because it isn't obvious to the reader. Thus as Dr Deans notes the average punter can not get a clear picture of a service provider (for instance) due to the rules on FPN.
Even if you are aware of the rules it is not possible to know if feedback is routinely positive due to a lack of negative experiences or a lack of negative feedback.
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
I would agree with you,but my thinking is this: If I were running a forum on fountain pens,why would I care what aActually I suspect that the opposite is true in this case.
From the tone of things said in the FPN thread it looks like Wim is responding to pressure, not incentive.
The FPN relationship with manufacturers and retailers/service providers in terms of censorship of negative posts has always struck me as a disservice to the community because it isn't obvious to the reader. Thus as Dr Deans notes the average punter can not get a clear picture of a service provider (for instance) due to the rules on FPN.
Even if you are aware of the rules it is not possible to know if feedback is routinely positive due to a lack of negative experiences or a lack of negative feedback.
major fountain pen company wants(especially when they already put out a brochure to some loyal forum members)
unless I had a fiduciary relationship with them either in the form of payment or advertising? Wim isn't being nice to
be nice.
John
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
Blown totally out of proportion. MB has always tried to keep stuff secret and all FPN did was agree to not post material MB asked not to be posted. No force. No threats. Just polite requests.
Bunch of whiners getting their diapers in a wad.
johniem (February 15th, 2016), Newjelan (February 16th, 2016), Sailor Kenshin (February 15th, 2016), Sandy Fry (February 14th, 2016), TAYLORPUPPY (February 18th, 2016), TSherbs (February 15th, 2016)
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
Hey jar, you're mistaken. This is not about FPN agreeing not to post material, its about FPN deleting material which has already been posted -- effectively censoring the free and legal speech of its users. You might not think of that as much of an issue but obviously the community does: the blog post has more than 1500 views (in less than 24 hours) and it's already being discussed right across the community -- here, reddit, twitter, Facebook, Slack rooms, and at the LA show. If the mods hadn't shut down the post, it'd be discussion at FPN too. Just because you don't like the discussion doesn't mean the topic shouldn't be discussed.
Now, I always had the impression that Americans held the right to free speech as being sacrosanct. It's interesting to see an American -- a Texan, no less -- so untroubled by censorship. Then again, this is a Texan who quotes himself three times in his own signature and is perhaps more interested in his own speech than that of others.
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
Sorry but it seems you have no idea of what the Right to Free Speech even entails.
Hey jar, you're mistaken. This is not about FPN agreeing not to post material, its about FPN deleting material which has already been posted -- effectively censoring the free and legal speech of its users. You might not think of that as much of an issue but obviously the community does: the blog post has more than 1500 views (in less than 24 hours) and it's already being discussed right across the community -- here, reddit, twitter, Facebook, Slack rooms, and at the LA show. If the mods hadn't shut down the post, it'd be discussion at FPN too. Just because you don't like the discussion doesn't mean the topic shouldn't be discussed.
Now, I always had the impression that Americans held the right to free speech as being sacrosanct. It's interesting to see an American -- a Texan, no less -- so untroubled by censorship. Then again, this is a Texan who quotes himself three times in his own signature and is perhaps more interested in his own speech than that of others.
Free speech does not mean anyone can say anything they want anywhere they want. But ignorance of that fact seems frighteningly common these days just as the other utter nonsense so often spouted on the web is common.
I have no issue with the decision at FPN nor with folk expressing their personal views, however ignorant and uninformed they might be in other venues. I support their right to say such stuff in venues where it is appropriate. But I also have the right to point out that it is whining over nothing.
That does not change the facts that it has been blown totally out of proportion and that folk are just whining infants with their diapers in a wad.
As to FPN deleting posts? Yup, happens, has happened in the past and likely will happen in the future. In fact some of my posts have been deleted over there.
But I understand that I do not have an unlimited Right to Free Speech in many venues. If I come to your house and say stuff you dislike I understand you have every right to toss my sorry ass out. On an internet forum my Right of Free Speech is limited to whatever extent the owners and administrators of the forum decide.
And that is how it should be. They should have the right to censure any speech that is on their site to any extent they wish.
alaskazimm (February 17th, 2016), DaveBj (February 17th, 2016), Dragonmaster Lou (February 15th, 2016), Haefennasiel (May 16th, 2016), opus7600 (March 7th, 2016), pajaro (February 27th, 2016), Sailor Kenshin (February 15th, 2016), TAYLORPUPPY (February 18th, 2016), TSherbs (February 15th, 2016)
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
FPN also deletes any mention of Pentrace (www.newpentrace.com), the oldest pen enthusiasts' website (est. in the year 2000) where Wim started writing and publishing his material. Pentrace is non-profit and frankly I don't see why any mention should be removed, given the fact that an FPN person who decides to visit Pentrace will still visit FPN! By the way, the two forums are completely different, one is not a copycat of the other...Sorry but it seems you have no idea of what the Right to Free Speech even entails.
Hey jar, you're mistaken. This is not about FPN agreeing not to post material, its about FPN deleting material which has already been posted -- effectively censoring the free and legal speech of its users. You might not think of that as much of an issue but obviously the community does: the blog post has more than 1500 views (in less than 24 hours) and it's already being discussed right across the community -- here, reddit, twitter, Facebook, Slack rooms, and at the LA show. If the mods hadn't shut down the post, it'd be discussion at FPN too. Just because you don't like the discussion doesn't mean the topic shouldn't be discussed.
Now, I always had the impression that Americans held the right to free speech as being sacrosanct. It's interesting to see an American -- a Texan, no less -- so untroubled by censorship. Then again, this is a Texan who quotes himself three times in his own signature and is perhaps more interested in his own speech than that of others.
Free speech does not mean anyone can say anything they want anywhere they want. But ignorance of that fact seems frighteningly common these days just as the other utter nonsense so often spouted on the web is common.
I have no issue with the decision at FPN nor with folk expressing their personal views, however ignorant and uninformed they might be in other venues. I support their right to say such stuff in venues where it is appropriate. But I also have the right to point out that it is whining over nothing.
That does not change the facts that it has been blown totally out of proportion and that folk are just whining infants with their diapers in a wad.
As to FPN deleting posts? Yup, happens, has happened in the past and likely will happen in the future. In fact some of my posts have been deleted over there.
But I understand that I do not have an unlimited Right to Free Speech in many venues. If I come to your house and say stuff you dislike I understand you have every right to toss my sorry ass out. On an internet forum my Right of Free Speech is limited to whatever extent the owners and administrators of the forum decide.
And that is how it should be. They should have the right to censure any speech that is on their site to any extent they wish.
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
You used fact and logic in your argument, and that's not fair.Sorry but it seems you have no idea of what the Right to Free Speech even entails.
Hey jar, you're mistaken. This is not about FPN agreeing not to post material, its about FPN deleting material which has already been posted -- effectively censoring the free and legal speech of its users. You might not think of that as much of an issue but obviously the community does: the blog post has more than 1500 views (in less than 24 hours) and it's already being discussed right across the community -- here, reddit, twitter, Facebook, Slack rooms, and at the LA show. If the mods hadn't shut down the post, it'd be discussion at FPN too. Just because you don't like the discussion doesn't mean the topic shouldn't be discussed.
Now, I always had the impression that Americans held the right to free speech as being sacrosanct. It's interesting to see an American -- a Texan, no less -- so untroubled by censorship. Then again, this is a Texan who quotes himself three times in his own signature and is perhaps more interested in his own speech than that of others.
Free speech does not mean anyone can say anything they want anywhere they want. But ignorance of that fact seems frighteningly common these days just as the other utter nonsense so often spouted on the web is common.
I have no issue with the decision at FPN nor with folk expressing their personal views, however ignorant and uninformed they might be in other venues. I support their right to say such stuff in venues where it is appropriate. But I also have the right to point out that it is whining over nothing.
That does not change the facts that it has been blown totally out of proportion and that folk are just whining infants with their diapers in a wad.
As to FPN deleting posts? Yup, happens, has happened in the past and likely will happen in the future. In fact some of my posts have been deleted over there.
But I understand that I do not have an unlimited Right to Free Speech in many venues. If I come to your house and say stuff you dislike I understand you have every right to toss my sorry ass out. On an internet forum my Right of Free Speech is limited to whatever extent the owners and administrators of the forum decide.
And that is how it should be. They should have the right to censure any speech that is on their site to any extent they wish.
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
I am more than willing to respect you, and your opinion, but I find that the first statement is not a good example of how you portray yourself in the second. If I should not have taken at least the slightest offense at your first statement, then I plead confusion.
I readily admit that, at times, my passions get the better of me. I am willing to bet that any reading of my postings from the last few years would show ample examples of apologies for when I've stepped over the line. The thing is: whether you think a subject is trivial or of great import, if it stokes my passion and evokes strong opinion, I simply don't feel any reason to keep that tamped down inside of me. In this regard I am very thankful for a forum that allows for adult communication in all it's incandescent glory, with the minuses as well as the pluses. I will respect you at your word that it is not your intent to insult the individuals of this forum, and hope that you will do likewise we me, and with others.
"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
I have never been a member of a forum I disliked more and which was more unevenly and eccentrically moderated than the FPN.
Totally hamfisted moderation. Warnings and bans for seemingly no reason, but other blatant infractions just left to stand. I received a warning based on a wild insane reading of a thread, with sentiments attributed to me that I wasn't even close to saying or implying. Some of the mods there seem to have reading comprehension issues. Totally bonkers, arbitrary, plus the software is a disaster, slow loading, lots of down time, and the classifieds (the one reason to check that board daily) have been ruined for months on end by one user whose turned it into his own private store front.
However, this response is baffling to me. I am pretty sure the US constitution was not addressing privately owned and registered internet forums when talking about a free press. Most forums are moderated and awful moderation (an FPN specialty) is not censorship. A forum is more like private property where the owner gets to set the rules. I think you need to think about censorship and the US constitution and how that differs from an internet forum. This is a weird false equivalency that is trotted out over and over again. Wim is free to run the FPN as craptacularly as he wants. AND CONGRATS ON DOING A BANG UP JOB OF THAT. haha.
Edited to add: [Nevertheless, I largely agree with the posted article from peneconomics linked above]
Last edited by stub; February 14th, 2016 at 09:10 PM.
Dragonmaster Lou (February 15th, 2016), RNHC (March 11th, 2016)
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
Simple solution: have nothing to do with FPN. It is not clear that whining and ranting here serves any useful purpose
TSherbs (February 15th, 2016)
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
... other than to have at least one place to discuss it without the comments vanishing. Whether it is whining and ranting may be a judgement call on the part of the reader.
"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin
Dreck (February 15th, 2016), fountainpenkid (February 24th, 2016), Giovanni Abrate (February 16th, 2016), iosepus (March 8th, 2016), Marsilius (February 15th, 2016), oldstoat (February 17th, 2016), pengeezer (February 15th, 2016), reprieve (February 15th, 2016), RNHC (March 14th, 2016), Rossler (February 25th, 2016), stub (February 18th, 2016)
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
Thanks Captain Obvious but I wasn't asking you for a solution. I was making a statement. One amongst many.
Not up to you to decide what is useful for me. This is a thread about the FPN. So I discussed the FPN and the issue at hand as was my want and prerogative. I am not looking to solve a problem (there is none) I am sharing my thoughts on my experience there. You don't have to like it, agree with it or respond.
I'll give you a further hint:
and then with that statement in mind maybe think about the membership here, who reads here and why any anyone would take the time to maybe type a few lined about the FPN.
Last edited by stub; February 15th, 2016 at 09:42 PM.
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
I can already tell that my good friend Jar and I disagree on some of the main points in play, but nowhere in what he has said indicated that he doesn't like the discussion or that it shouldn't be discussed. You are making that up out of thin air. He may very well think all of this is lame, but I am certain he is behind everyone's right to discuss it.
"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin
Haefennasiel (May 16th, 2016), HughC (February 14th, 2016), Marsilius (February 14th, 2016), Sailor Kenshin (February 15th, 2016)
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
Such attitudes reflect the sort of strange and shallow understanding that people have of any legal writes to free speech ... too much watching of movies and bad TV or something.
Let us be clear on this: no one has any right to post whatever they wish on FPN; anyone who does so does it at the discretion and pleasure of the forum owners, who are free to delete whatever they don't care for and for any reason.
If people have "issues" with FPN, then the best thing they can do is stop posting there or reading anything written there; go elsewhere instead.
Last edited by Chazz; February 15th, 2016 at 05:58 PM.
brunico (February 15th, 2016), Sailor Kenshin (February 16th, 2016), TSherbs (February 15th, 2016)
Re: On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community
In essence what you say is correct, it's just not made clear to most users that commercial interests take precedence over pen related discussions.Such attitudes reflect the sort of strange and shallow understanding that people have of any legal writes to free speech ... too much watching of movies and bad TV or something.
Let us be clear on this: no one has any right to post whatever they wish on FPN; anyone who does so does it at the discretion and pleasure of the forum owners, who are free to delete whatever they don't care for and for any reason.
If people have "issues" with FPN, then the best thing they can do is stop posting there or reading anything written there; go elsewhere instead.
Jon Szanto (February 15th, 2016), Marsilius (February 15th, 2016)
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