Definition of Christian

[Chip]

When you and Chip take swipes at Christianity within several threads, you think that's fine, but now you complain when I simply ask someone who is not interested why they are posting on a thread specifically about what it means to be a Christian.

The title of the thread is "Definition of Christian." That doesn't limit the discussion to what it means to you, or Putin.

Here's a discussion of an aspect that's so ingrained few self-termed Christians even think about it, written by a Muslim historian:

What Is the Eucharist?

With roots in the New Testament, namely with the episode of “The Last Supper,” it consists of drinking the sacramental wine and eating the sacramental bread, both representing the blood and the body of Jesus (`alayhi-salam), respectively.

Even if it were merely symbolic or metaphorical, it would still be odd to eat someone you consider your God. But it’s worse: Apart from the Calvinists, all Christian denominations believe in the “real presence” of Jesus during the rite.

What does that mean, practically?

That, as a Christian, you must believe that you’re literally eating his flesh and drinking his blood!

https://muslimskeptic.com/2022/02/05...the-eucharist/

[dneal]

When you and Chip take swipes at Christianity within several threads, you think that's fine, but now you complain when I simply ask someone who is not interested why they are posting on a thread specifically about what it means to be a Christian.

The title of the thread is "Definition of Christian." That doesn't limit the discussion to what it means to you, or Putin.

True, but there's an Original Post (OP) that frames the topic by posing a question.

Aside from the couple of distractions of verse being quoted and attempts to turn it into a proof of god discussion; it was a pretty good thread until TSherbs turned it into a catch-all.

Herr Forumsscheisser strikes again.

[TSherbs]

When you and Chip take swipes at Christianity within several threads, you think that's fine, but now you complain when I simply ask someone who is not interested why they are posting on a thread specifically about what it means to be a Christian.

The title of the thread is "Definition of Christian." That doesn't limit the discussion to what it means to you, or Putin.

Here's a discussion of an aspect that's so ingrained few self-termed Christians even think about it, written by a Muslim historian:

What Is the Eucharist?

With roots in the New Testament, namely with the episode of “The Last Supper,” it consists of drinking the sacramental wine and eating the sacramental bread, both representing the blood and the body of Jesus (`alayhi-salam), respectively.

Even if it were merely symbolic or metaphorical, it would still be odd to eat someone you consider your God. But it’s worse: Apart from the Calvinists, all Christian denominations believe in the “real presence” of Jesus during the rite.

What does that mean, practically?

That, as a Christian, you must believe that you’re literally eating his flesh and drinking his blood!

https://muslimskeptic.com/2022/02/05...the-eucharist/

My protestant church never taught literal transubstantiation; in fact they used grape juice, not wine (well, I guess both are "grape juice," technically). I am a fan of ritual and symbolism, though. But not transubstantiation. That idea, when I learned of it (my teens?), seemed extreme, even silly.

[TSherbs]

Interestingly, very early in Christian history, some groups were treating the eucharist more like a party (apparently). Early elders were upset and trying to root out the more bachanalian practices. Not sure 3xactly what the details were, but I am curious. After all, why not be happy and party to celebrate Jesus' "fortunate death" (as I have heard it termed).

[Chip]

In the Mormon Church I attended, the sacrament was white Wonder Bread, torn into pieces, and wee Dixie cups of water. Snatched a photo off the web: at least the bread is whole wheat.



I can't help but remark on the omnipresence of blood in Christian rites and writings. (e.g. Are you washed in the Blood of the Lamb?) There are many sacred relics said to contain the blood of Jesus or to have been stained by it (e.g. the Shroud of Turin).



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_of_Christ

Pastoral tribes around the Mediterranean shared the custom of animal sacrifice, most often a young (unbred, i.e. innocent) lamb, goat, or calf, to placate their gods. Early Christians seem to have adopted the archetype and applied it to Jesus, while vastly expanding the significance of his willing sacrifice.

One of the key reasons for the growth of Christianity was the constant co-opting of symbolism and ritual from older tribal beliefs, a practice known as syncretism.

[Chuck Naill]

To anyone here the text is readily available, Luke 22:7 and following. Jesus was participating with his followers the Jewish feast of Passover and this was he first day of unleavened bread. The Passover lamb was eaten, and the blood applied to save the family, again this is clearly provided in the OT scriptures. The symbolism should be clear that Jesus is the Passover Lamb. Nothing here is hard to understand. There is no reason to mistake or making it more than it should be, or hard to avoid.

Jesus encountered religion in his day. He said that unless your rightness exceeds that of the religious people one will not enter the Kingdom of God. Those religious leaders had only the outward appearance of being right. Jesus told his followers not to worry but seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness. His rightness is the sort in which men and women are right inside their spirit. Maybe a quick explanation of the Kingdom of God is in order. This is God's range of effective authority and rule. It is where he has "say". This does not include humanity. He reserves for them the right to have "say" in their lives or their little kingdoms.

Here is an example of rightness in spirit. Let's say you volunteer at a soup kitchen. The folks come in and some are dirty, some arrogant and angry, some beaten down, others just happy to have a meal. Others might think you are a loving person because you are serving others, but inside you might think you are better than those hungry people and you talk down to them if they ask of an extra piece of bread. This is not the sort of rightness that Jesus is talking about. His rightness includes serving, but love and compassion toward those we seek to serve.

All this takes me back to the idea of discipleship that I have been posting about. Jesus' message to those that chose to follow was for them to change their minds, the Kingdom of God was right in front of their nose. He invited them to have a conversational relationship with the Father and him. He promised them a helper that would teach them what to do. Again, if we think of what it means to be an apprentice to someone, you will know exactly what Jesus taught. Jesus talked to the Father and so can we. God is close, right in front of our nose.

Lastly, the scriptures were not widely available before the printing press and the common man didn't read. This led to the formation of religious institutions that we see today. Even today many are misled simply because they have never taken the time to actually read what Jesus said. There are places where free bibles are available in every language. There is literally no reason someone cannot find out if interested.

I must agree with @chip that I cannot define what Christian means, but I can define what a disciple of Jesus is. A disciple of Jesus is someone who wants to follow what Jesus said and did in order to live their lives as he would if Jesus was living their lives. This means I love others as I love myself and I treat others as I would want to be treated. This is either happening or it isn't. This is why the verse exists that say they will know you are my disciples by your love for one another.

In the book, The Shack, Mac askes Jesus if all roads lead to him. Jesus said most roads don't lead anywhere. Then he said that he would use any path to find a disciple. I do believe there are people in other faiths that are wanting to live a good life, an abundant life. I don't think God will leave them dissatisfied.

Love also involves being honest. Jesus didn't condemn the woman caught in adultery. He even knew she was powerless to stop. People becoming a disciple understand it will take time, but God will help them and over time they will be set free. They will become the sort of person who walks, talks, loves, and gives like their apprentice master. Again, we simply change the way we were taught or have come to think because the effective range of God's authority is available in the space surrounding our bodies. Let him who have ears to hear, hear.

[TSherbs]

In the Mormon Church I attended, the sacrament was white Wonder Bread, torn into pieces, and wee Dixie cups of water. Snatched a photo off the web: at least the bread is whole wheat.

Water? I had never heard of that before. But of course, I was raised being told that Mormons weren't Christians, anyway. And so I wonder: definitionally, does one have to have ever partaken of a certain sacrament in a certain way with certain materials in a certain location to be "a Christian." I tend to think not, but what do I know. As Chuck suggests, one may pick up a Bible anywhere and read. But of course, for over a thousand years, one did not even have to be literate to be a Christian (and still don't have to be, I don't imagine).

[Chuck Naill]

The Bible is not necessary anymore than going to school is necessary. One may learn by watching and pursuing life. Abraham Lincoln had little available books, but became a lawyer.

The Bible is a tool as we know from reading any book. If one is available or if even a small fragment of a letter from the early church writers is available, use it.

The early church understood from Jesus that the paraclete or “helper” would come after he left. The Apostle John even said to his readers they didn’t need a teacher since they had been engulfed by this helper.


There is absolutely no reason to believe in any religious institution. There is no reason to avoid certain foods or observe religious days. As a writer said somewhere, the Kingdom of God is rightness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.

[Chip]

Water? I had never heard of that before. But of course, I was raised being told that Mormons weren't Christians, anyway. And so I wonder: definitionally, does one have to have ever partaken of a certain sacrament in a certain way with certain materials in a certain location to be "a Christian." I tend to think not, but what do I know. As Chuck suggests, one may pick up a Bible anywhere and read. But of course, for over a thousand years, one did not even have to be literate to be a Christian (and still don't have to be, I don't imagine).

In "A Word of Wisdom to the Saints" Joseph Smith cautioned against hot drinks, cold drinks, and strong drinks as being unhealthy. In the early days of the church, Smith was known to sit around a table with his followers drinking whiskey and smoking cigars, so perhaps he learned by bitter experience.

As wine, including the sacramental sort, was proscribed, water was the default. Devout Mormons are also expected to avoid liquor, coffee, tea, and cola: 7-Up is okay. Not sure about Mountain Dew, which has heaps of caffeine.

We were taught that Catholics, being idolators, were not true Christians. So it goes. . .

[TSherbs]

...

We were taught that Catholics, being idolators, were not true Christians. So it goes. . .

Ha. I was taught the same as a mainline Protestant. Religion is a funny and fucked-up thing.

[Chip]

As the psychiatrist Thomas Szasz put it, in The Myth of Mental Illness:

“If you talk to God, you are praying. If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia.”

[TSherbs]

As the psychiatrist Thomas Szasz put it, in The Myth of Mental Illness:

“If you talk to God, you are praying. If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia.”

Or, if men sporting garish rings and wearing dresses read to a crowd (that includes children) from a book and then sing songs of joyful praise... wait....Aren't there some new laws against this??

[Chuck Naill]

Dr. Willard rightly points out that our culture honors skepticism so that one may be a dumb as a cabbage as long as they are skeptical.

Some pray only when they need something. These people would not want to hear from God normally or at any other time. This is contrasted by the person who wants a simple, conversational relationship with God.

Becoming an apprentice to Jesus results in personal transformation and the redemption of an ordinary life where Christ is formed in us so that we live our lives as he would if he were us. In this way we are made able to love so that we do not take into account a wrong suffered and can say as he did, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". After our apprenticeship and have been tested we are ready to become a journeyman. If we continue, we can become like our master fully equipped to be trusted. God trusts people and honors them with making their own decision of what to do and believe. Resist anyone who pushes you into something for which you are not prepared to accept.

As you lay your head on your pillow today, simply ask God to reveal himself to you in a way that you would know it is outside your ability to imagine or fabricate. We know that only those who seek find in any activity of life. Knowing God is a personal endeavor just like learning to paddle white water or deciding which book to read. Intent is the beginning of finding out.

[TSherbs]

Becoming an apprentice to Jesus results in personal transformation and the redemption of an ordinary life where Christ is formed in us so that we live our lives as he would if he were us. In this way we are made able to love so that we do not take into account a wrong suffered and can say as he did, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". After our apprenticeship and have been tested we are ready to become a journeyman. If we continue, we can become like our master fully equipped to be trusted. God trusts people and honors them with making their own decision of what to do and believe. Resist anyone who pushes you into something for which you are not prepared to accept.

As you lay your head on your pillow today, simply ask God to reveal himself to you in a way that you would know it is outside your ability to imagine or fabricate.

You don't see this as proselytizing for Christianity?

[Chip]

Ask God to reveal himself?

One might as well ask a tree to bear apples in midwinter.

[Chuck Naill]

Becoming an apprentice to Jesus results in personal transformation and the redemption of an ordinary life where Christ is formed in us so that we live our lives as he would if he were us. In this way we are made able to love so that we do not take into account a wrong suffered and can say as he did, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". After our apprenticeship and have been tested we are ready to become a journeyman. If we continue, we can become like our master fully equipped to be trusted. God trusts people and honors them with making their own decision of what to do and believe. Resist anyone who pushes you into something for which you are not prepared to accept.

As you lay your head on your pillow today, simply ask God to reveal himself to you in a way that you would know it is outside your ability to imagine or fabricate.

You don't see this as proselytizing for Christianity?

Do you feel proselytized, Ted? I wasn't directing my posts to anyone in particular. You should not have a problem with my posts on a thread with Christian as the topic. Nor, I might add, should you have made the unkind posts, "Religion is a funny and fucked-up thing", but you did. It didn't further the topics discussion.

[TSherbs]

I'll take that as a yes.

[Chuck Naill]

Okay, back to the topic. As I said earlier, skepticism in our culture is honored. The idea that humans can talk to God or any spiritual being is not even attempted by the skeptical. Praying in this type of setting is one way. The skeptical person can be even arrogant in what they do not understand or even considered as a possibility.

I tend to honor curiosity in myself and others remaining teachable and inquisitive. This posture has led me in a path of discovery many times, since those that seek find. In Christian thought those that look beyond the physical are rewarded with a rich, vibrant, spiritual experience. A decision to do this is not something anyone should push upon you. God respects you and you have say over what you do.

"He came to what was his own, but his own people did not receive him. But to all who have received him – those who believe in his name – he has given the right/authority to become God’s children, Children not born by human parents or by human desire or a husband’s decision, but by God."

This same curiosity has led to many disagreements with established institutional theologies. I have come to these differences by focusing on scripture.

My purpose again is not to urge or push a view, but to suggest that skepticism is not a path forward, but a posture that leads nowhere. If you decide to challenge your skepticism and rethink what you think is true, you can always return to being skeptical later. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[RobJohnson]

By way of not very much I propose to pass on a story.

A neighbours son, aged about 23, has been for a chat as I was sat outside my house. The previous week he had been to see his grandfather who was terminally ill, now passed. His grandfather had never been religious, not dismissive of Faith, just not for him. For each of the final three nights of his life he was aware that there were three silent figures in the bedroom, he couldn't see any faces or even clothing, just very dark shapes. Two were benign but one scared him a great deal and on the successive nights the fear increased, he was screaming by the third night.

The grandson asked for my opinion on what had happened, I told him to pray for his grandfather, even if he had never prayed before. I didn't tell him that something similar had happened to me around ten years before.

[Chuck Naill]

By way of not very much I propose to pass on a story.

A neighbours son, aged about 23, has been for a chat as I was sat outside my house. The previous week he had been to see his grandfather who was terminally ill, now passed. His grandfather had never been religious, not dismissive of Faith, just not for him. For each of the final three nights of his life he was aware that there were three silent figures in the bedroom, he couldn't see any faces or even clothing, just very dark shapes. Two were benign but one scared him a great deal and on the successive nights the fear increased, he was screaming by the third night.

The grandson asked for my opinion on what had happened, I told him to pray for his grandfather, even if he had never prayed before. I didn't tell him that something similar had happened to me around ten years before.

Thank you for sharing, @robjohnson. I think you gave the son sound best advice. Having worked in hospice, dying people are in physical and spiritual transition.

20 years ago, when I was facing some push back on the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, it occurred to me that a person with an experience always has an advantage over a person with a theory. Test those experiences of course, but don't let your skeptical associates take away what you know you have lived through, held, and seen.