Definition of Christian

[TSherbs]

. It also led to your thinking monasteries are a good thing until you heard it from someone who was actually in one and discovered the truth.

If you think I have changed my mind about monastic life, you are sorely mistaken.

Report whatever the fuck you want about my language. Your dodgy games don't deserve better. Lying is worse than vulgarity, dude.

[Chip]

I've never heard him say he had a mission or tell anyone that if they signed up they had to be poor.

How could you have heard him say anything?

Curious choice of a word. Obviously, you weren't present at the time and he wasn't taking notes, so anything you know must have either been read or in the voice of some bible-quoter.

[Chuck Naill]

. It also led to your thinking monasteries are a good thing until you heard it from someone who was actually in one and discovered the truth.

If you think I have changed my mind about monastic life, you are sorely mistaken.

Report whatever the fuck you want about my language. Your dodgy games don't deserve better. Lying is worse than vulgarity, dude.

I'm not trying to change your mind. How absurd. You have no interest in the topic.

I've never lied one time. You would not be able to point out one lie, because I haven't. I've explained my understanding and you don't like it and want to argue about something for which you haven't devoted much, if any, attention.

You are the one repeating a threat to report a post, not me.

[TSherbs]

... Thanks for the f bomb. Someone should report your post.

You are the one repeating a threat to report a post, not me.

Nah, not *you*. *You* would never do such a thing....

Another lie from you.

[TSherbs]

The context of my use of mission earlier was after you said Jesus expected his students to live in poverty and used a special event or mission that he sent out 12 of his students on a type of scrimmage.

[my emphasis added]

This is a bold lie. I never said such a thing, and would never use such words. This is how you misconstrue what I said.

[Chuck Naill]

The context of my use of mission earlier was after you said Jesus expected his students to live in poverty and used a special event or mission that he sent out 12 of his students on a type of scrimmage.

[my emphasis added]

This is a bold lie. I never said such a thing, and would never use such words. This is how you misconstrue what I said.

You wrote:
"Jesus did ask his disciples to give up their homes, give up their families, and lead a life of journeying from town to town with no food and very little clothing. He told the disciples to accept food and shelter from residents, or move on to the next town. This isn't exactly what we would call "poverty" today, but it is a life of no possessions and no guarranteed meals or shelter. That is pretty close to mendicant, homeless. This is one of the reasons that monks and nuns take a "vow of poverty" in some Catholic sects. It's because Jesus said so and did so himself (according to the story)."

So, no, I am not being dishonest.

You had previously used as an example of where Jesus told the young man to give his money to the poor and follow him as an example of where Jesus expected his students to live in poverty. Again, I am not being dishonest.

[TSherbs]

The context of my use of mission earlier was after you said Jesus expected his students to live in poverty and used a special event or mission that he sent out 12 of his students on a type of scrimmage.

[my emphasis added]

This is a bold lie. I never said such a thing, and would never use such words. This is how you misconstrue what I said.

You wrote:
"Jesus did ask his disciples to give up their homes, give up their families, and lead a life of journeying from town to town with no food and very little clothing. He told the disciples to accept food and shelter from residents, or move on to the next town. This isn't exactly what we would call "poverty" today, but it is a life of no possessions and no guarranteed meals or shelter. That is pretty close to mendicant, homeless. This is one of the reasons that monks and nuns take a "vow of poverty" in some Catholic sects. It's because Jesus said so and did so himself (according to the story)."

So, no, I am not being dishonest.

You had previously used as an example of where Jesus told the young man to give his money to the poor and follow him as an example of where Jesus expected his students to live in poverty. Again, I am not being dishonest.

At least your quoting me now. Yes. Now put that up against your summaries of what I said. I didn't say that Jesus sent them on a scrimmage. Or that Jesus was "teaching poverty." Or that Jesus was making poverty a requirement. Or that he was asking "everyone" to be poor.

[Chuck Naill]

The quote demonstrates what you think. Further quotes would only demonstrate the same. At least now you know I am not a liar. I just have a better memory of our conversations.

You quoted the passage above and compared it to vows of poverty taken by nuns and monks. The two do not relate. The Bible passages is about the scrimmage, not a practice Jesus expected or taught. He just simply said for them, as they went their way, to make disciples when he commissioned them, see Matthew 28:18-20 for a more complete idea of his command.

[TSherbs]

You quoted the passage above and compared it to vows of poverty taken by nuns and monks. The two do not relate.

They don't "relate"? You're crazy. You just deny history.

Again, I'm flummoxed by your opposition to the idea of voluntary poverty in Christianity and monastic life. All you have said is that it isn't *required* by Jesus (correct, and no one said it was), and you quoted Martin Luther saying it was "dangerous" (one sentence, no context given. Of course, Luther opposed several Catholic practices). All the rest that you write is sermonizing off this topic.

What's your opposition to the practice of *some* Christians volunteering their lives to God and giving up all of their wealth and possessions (as Jesus asks the rich man in Luke)? What is your opposition to some Christians choosing to do this, if they want? Why don't you respect this option?

[Chuck Naill]

Luther entered the monastery because he believed, at the time, the best way to serve God was by abandoning his family, his home, and the world.

I do not deny history. Jesus was not establishing a method for ministry/discipleship using the verse you have been using.

We have been discussing Christianity on several threads over time. Sometimes you have been critical of what some have done throughout history and in modern times as it has become a political movement. Therefore, it is important to me to point out that voluntary practices can lead to some disastrous results. Some believed enslaving Africans was scripturally based. Some believed that Donald Trump was God's messenger.

Contrast that with Jesus own words, very simple and straightforward, easy to understand, seek first the Kingdom of God and his kind of being right and all these things you are worried about will be taken care of, aka relax. Then later his commission, to make apprentices and teach them what he had told them to do. What did he tell them to do? To love God and their neighbors as they loved themselves by being empowered to do so by the Holy Spirit.

[Chuck Naill]

I am reminded of the incidents of pedophilia. Would it not better marry than voluntarily becoming celibate?

[TSherbs]

... Therefore, it is important to me to point out that voluntary practices can lead to some disastrous results.

This is your reason for not respecting the choice of others to join monasteries? That it *might* turn out bad? What, more badly than the thousand other ways that Christians have justified prejudice, hatred, misogyny, murder, and genocide?

That's all you have? That it *might* go badly? As in, badly *how*?

[Chuck Naill]

... Therefore, it is important to me to point out that voluntary practices can lead to some disastrous results.

This is your reason for not respecting the choice of others to join monasteries? That it *might* turn out bad? What, more badly than the thousand other ways that Christians have justified prejudice, hatred, misogyny, murder, and genocide?

That's all you have? That it *might* go badly? As in, badly *how*?

Excellent point and thank you for listing, "other ways that Christians have justified prejudice, hatred, misogyny, murder, and genocide". Those practices can only occur when people act either ignorantly or have been misinformed. What I am attempting to do is to focus on what Jesus said and then later the first apostles, and practices by first century Jesus societies rather than actions, practices and restrictions, that were added later.

Yes, "might go badly" is appropriate to say. For example, a man entering the priesthood and taking a vow of celibacy, might go badly. It has occurred and you've pointed it out. However, it doesn't always go badly.

[TSherbs]

[
Excellent point and thank you for listing, "other ways that Christians have justified prejudice, hatred, misogyny, murder, and genocide". Those practices can only occur when people act either ignorantly or have been misinformed.

That's your explanation for Christians acting badly?

You are quite the religious apologist. Impressive wall of rationalization you have erected around your thinking.

Why is it, then, that the word of God has so little lasting power for good over its followers? Surely, the "living word" of the Messiah would have more effectiveness, since only human ignorance would misdirect its followers. Does the word of God have so little strength next to a paltry human characteristic like ignorance? The promise of manna in heaven for eternity? And yet Christian belief is falling in this country? Odd, no?

[Chuck Naill]

It is a rare thing for a person to be is a pastoral/teacher position and be this honest about the problems within the Evangelical gatherings, but this is one for those interested.

"The result we get is the natural outcome of the basic message we are preaching and that outcome is shocking to some people. What is the alternative? Well, we can try preaching the gospel Jesus preached in the way He preached it. We could try that. In my own life as a young, very green Southern Baptist pastor it came as a shock to me when I realized that Jesus was not preaching what I was preaching, and then I realized that I had been taught that I was not supposed to preach what he was preaching. In fact, in one way or another, that teaching has become standard. We today do not know how to preach what he preached. The idea grows up that Paul had one gospel and Jesus had another, which is patently false once you look at the texts. You’d never get that idea from the New Testament unless you were told it must be there."
https://dwillard.org/articles/failur...al-involvement

[Chuck Naill]

[
Excellent point and thank you for listing, "other ways that Christians have justified prejudice, hatred, misogyny, murder, and genocide". Those practices can only occur when people act either ignorantly or have been misinformed.

That's your explanation for Christians acting badly?

You are quite the religious apologist. Impressive wall of rationalization you have erected around your thinking.

Why is it, then, that the word of God has so little lasting power for good over its followers? Surely, the "living word" of the Messiah would have more effectiveness, since only human ignorance would misdirect its followers. Does the word of God have so little strength next to a paltry human characteristic like ignorance? The promise of manna in heaven for eternity? And yet Christian belief is falling in this country? Odd, no?

Your best question to date. The reason is very simple, doing what Jesus told his students to do and those students carrying on the same commission is not being followed. The lasting power stems from learning that Jesus is saying the KOG is now available and deciding to become an apprentice which will result in a HS led process by which anyone and everyone can live their lives as Jesus would if he were them.

The word works for those that decide to become Jesus' friend and trust him. It has always worked. It will work today as it did in the first apostles.

What is falling away what Jesus said, "repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand". This will last until the end of the age as well as his involvement and empowerment to live in that kingdom.

[TSherbs]

If it is a good question, why don't you answer it? You *reply,* but it is not an answer to the question.

I'll try again: why can't the power of Jesus' message beat the measley weakling resistance of human frailty? Why is Christian religious faith declining in America in such circumstances where, as you claim, the message is so clear and the power of an omnipotent God is behind it?

[Chuck Naill]

If it is a good question, why don't you answer it? You *reply,* but it is not an answer to the question.

I'll try again: why can't the power of Jesus' message beat the measley weakling resistance of human frailty? Why is Christian religious faith declining in America in such circumstances where, as you claim, the message is so clear and the power of an omnipotent God is behind it?

I'll try again. See if you like this answer better than the previous.

Jesus's message does beat "the measly weakling resistance" by transforming the mind. Our spiritual formation is based on our experiences and choices we have lived through. The is why it is called "formation". When a person experiences Christian spiritual formation, they will begin to have experiences and make choices that will change how they think and act. An example might be, they don't lose their temper when wronged. Not because they grit their teeth, but because it is no longer important to have their way.

When a person discovers the option of entering the Kingdom of God and becoming an apprentice of Jesus, they experience a Holy Spirit lead spiritual transformation of their mind. This can be accomplished by practicing solitude, silence, meditation, and fasting. This will enable "the weakling resistance of human frailty" to be transformed so that we are no longer slaves to our bodies.

To answer the second question, the reason "Christian faith is declining" is simply because the Kingdom of God and Apprenticeship to Jesus has never been experienced. If you went to most churches, discipleship is a new member class where you are taught how to witness and tithe.

Had you experienced what I am talking about, you would understand what I am saying, or you would be telling me about it.

"The Evangelical “Gospel” and the Lack of Character Development

The current Evangelical understanding of salvation has no essential connection with a life morally transformed beyond the “ordinary.” Evangelicals are good at what they call “conversion.” They’re not good at what comes later, because what is preached by them as the gospel has no necessary connection to character transformation. Post-World War II Evangelicalism is, basically, fundamentalism in doctrine minus the pugnacious attitude. Unfortunately, fundamentalism defined itself in terms of correct belief, but not in terms of practice. Correct beliefs were a big and important issue and still are. I don’t question that. But now we must understand that we’ve developed a doctrine and an understanding of belief that does not entail action. It’s psychologically false, and biblically false in terms of the language there used, but that’s just the way Evangelicalism has developed. “Saving faith” has no necessary implication for becoming Christlike. The idea of Jesus as “Teacher,” as “Master,” and so on, became code language among liberals in the pre-World War II era for “merely human.” So if you talked about Jesus as a Teacher, that meant you were dismissing Him as Divine Lord, and “Teacher” disappeared from the fundamentalist (and then the Evangelical) vernacular. And, of course, where you don’t have teachers you can’t have students. So discipleship gradually disappeared during the 20th Century. Discipleship has historically been the process of association with Jesus and His people in which you become like Him. That disappeared from Evangelical practice."
https://dwillard.org/articles/failur...al-involvement

If Jesus is ignored as someone who knows something, he becomes someone from which knowledge cannot be learned. Is it any big mystery that American Christianity is diminishing? Of course not. It is not actually Christianity at all.

Here is a question for you, Ted. If Christians were the sort who championed others over themselves, would you want to live in that economy? Would you think a world controlled by loving others as you love yourself would go out of fashion? I do expect you to answer.

I always love to hear George C. Scott in the Dicken's Christman Carol say, "“I will honour Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year. I will live in the Past, the Present, and the Future. The Spirits of all Three shall strive within me. I will not shut out the lessons that they teach.” If somone who decides to be an apprentice of Jesus would say, "I will honor my neighbor over myself...." This would transform the world.

[Chip]

Second try: Chuck. You claimed to "hear" what Jesus said.

Please explain or I'll mobilize the little men in white coats.

[dneal]

Second try: Chuck. You claimed to "hear" what Jesus said.

Please explain or I'll mobilize the little men in white coats.

Cheap shots from the underbrush?