Definition of Christian

[jar]

Yikes, jar! That sounds harsh.

Let me put it another way: I don't value labels. I consider labels (categories exist only in human thought, not in reality, and not in deeper essence) to be superficial, often misleading, usually prejudiced by the limitations of human understanding and sometimes corrupted by social power. I consider labels to be a form of mental addiction that the West is particularly prone too (although not exclusively), including Judaism and Christianity (the two monotheisms of the West). Honestly, even the terms "West" and "East" contain ambiguity and error. Labels are often a form of discrimination that I consider false, this is what I meant by "concealing of truth." Both Judaism and Christianity have in their mainstream teachings a very strong element of exclusivity, of being "chosen," of being of one group (with definitions, laws, and rules) in counterpoint--sometimes made starkly and violently clear--to the other group(s) which has alien status (with its associated prejudices and lower value). But there also are mystical strains in all the monotheisms and in Eastern thought that try to look to truths deeper than tribal categories and differences. I consider these efforts at the truth of these deeper unities to be more reflective of our real spiritual conditions in this existence. There is nothing insincere or humorous or snarky in my motivation here. I don't even care if anyone else agrees. Indeed, I find this a minority position almost everywhere I go. And I certainly am not trying to persuade you or anyone else to see things similarly. I am no evangelist.

Yet you post nonsense, lots of words but no informational content. You seem able to even do it in a broadside in addition to a bumper sticker.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I strongly suggest you read the journal article in the link I gave.

[TSherbs]

EOC, I too struggle with the very things you describe. We all suffer from these struggles; bless you on your journey. Others are with you, even at a distance. There is no real separateness. Our banishment from the unity of Eden is not indicative of spiritual reality.

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[RNHC]

I asked much earlier in this thread what was the purpose in the question of Christian definition. The reason I asked is because in the majority of cases (in my experience) people wish to define, to pigeon-hole, for the purposes of comparison - usually against what they consider to be the norm for them. In other words it is an exercise in selective prejudice and self-affirmation of the worst kind.

Sometimes it's just an idle intellectual curiosity as in my case. When "something" doesn't have any bearing on one's life, it's hard for that "something" to influence or have a hold on one's behavior or thought. You don't think non-religious people are capable of having a detached, purely intellectual conversation about religion without judgement?

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I do, and I wasn't being 100% exclusionary in my quoted statement. However, religion being what it is, I tend to view the raising of such questions with a healthy degree of suspicion. It usually becomes apparent after a few comments what someone's agenda likely is.

[TSherbs]

I asked much earlier in this thread what was the purpose in the question of Christian definition. The reason I asked is because in the majority of cases (in my experience) people wish to define, to pigeon-hole, for the purposes of comparison - usually against what they consider to be the norm for them. In other words it is an exercise in selective prejudice and self-affirmation of the worst kind.

Sometimes it's just an idle intellectual curiosity as in my case. When "something" doesn't have any bearing on one's life, it's hard for that "something" to influence or have a hold on one's behavior or thought. You don't think non-religious people are capable of having a detached, purely intellectual conversation about religion without judgement?

Good question. Some people can, some can't. I can. Maybe we will see whether the group here can. Or at least for how long.

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[TSherbs]

So, RNHC, how do you feel about the efficacy of definitions and categories in spirituality and religion? Or the purpose of them? What, if any, definitions do you support?

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[RNHC]

So, RNHC, how do you feel about the efficacy of definitions and categories in spirituality and religion? Or the purpose of them? What, if any, definitions do you support?

Well, my original question was made on the premise of acceptance of Jesus' divinity being the key component of being Christian (as I was taught when I was young). Others have pointed out that wasn't necessarily essential. So I am just confused. Nonetheless, I am thoroughly enjoying the discussion and learning a lot from it.

[TSherbs]

This might also depend on how you define "divinity". I believe that you are as divine as Jesus and I identify as Christian and occasionally attend church.

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[TSherbs]

Others, including my stepfather, a Protestant minister, said that one could not be a Christian unless one believed in the assertions codified in the Apostles' Creed.

I disagreed, but I understood the position.

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[EricTheRed]

I was raised a Catholic but I haven't been to a church in a long while. As I read and learn, I started to question and I no longer believe in divinity of Jesus. I still believe in God. What does that make me?

It makes you a Deist (which is not necessarily a bad thing, it could be the best thing or a very unfortunate decision based upon your personal set of beliefs). It means you are not a Christian however as believing in the divinity of Jesus is a prerequisite to being a Christian. Sorry, but those are the rules from every mainstream Christian faith. You may be fine with this knowledge that you are no longer a Christian in which case you should continue to follow this path in life and see where it leads you. I personally am a very strong believer in Karma and am confidant good things will happen to you in life if you live in such a way that the world is a better place because you were in it. Conversely, if you are selfish and a detriment to society, bad things will coincidentally but consistently come your way as a warning that you are not following the right path in your life. If you find you are happy being a Deist then you are on the correct path. If you are uncomfortable with no longer being a Christian, then wrestle with, study the bible and challenge your beliefs. You may very well come to the conclusion that Jesus is divine after all and you want to follow his teachings and accept him as your savior. According to Chrisitian belief he will welcome you back with open arms and you will then once again become a Christian. I have my strong personal beliefs and faith based upon my life experiences, but like every other human being in this wonderful world, I do not know the answer with factual proof and absolute certainty. God chooses not to tell us directly and I think that is why it is called "the mystery of faith." In any event, best of luck on your life's journey and may God Bless You!

[TSherbs]

Thanks for your reply and thoughtfulness. The difficulty that I have with "mainstream" definitions is that Jesus gave his life in opposition to mainstream teachings. He had little spiritual interest in how things were normally done. "Normal" had become hollow, or worse, corrupt.

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[EricTheRed]

It is true that Jesus gave his life in opposition to mainstream teachings. I think this was because the mainstream teachers of his time period were corrupt and not teaching people to be humble, love others, and always treat them the way we want to be treated. This benevolence is what Jesus taught so it it much more difficult to ethically or intellectually oppose this school of thought. The fundamentals of Christianity are inherently good for society and allows it to grow and floursh. Look at the growth and high living standard of the West whose societies have been dominated by the Christitian faith. Their have been abnormalities in the West such as the inquisition and evil deeds done by individual priests, but these were notable exceptions not the overwhelming norm. The abnormalities are also not in keeping with the philosophy of Jesus.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Not sure I agree with any or all of that. Two prominent Western civilisations had a high standard of living in their day and weren't Christian (at least not for the most part) - the Greeks and Romans. The abnormalities you are talking about weren't simple transitory things, they plunged Europe into barbarism for a very long time. It wasn't called the Dark Ages because it happened on a wet weekend!

Also, I believe that the fundamentals of Christianity, as you put it and as I understand it, are not exclusive nor even original to that faith.

[dneal]

It is true that Jesus gave his life in opposition to mainstream teachings. I think this was because the mainstream teachers of his time period were corrupt and not teaching people to be humble, love others, and always treat them the way we want to be treated. This benevolence is what Jesus taught so it it much more difficult to ethically or intellectually oppose this school of thought. The fundamentals of Christianity are inherently good for society and allows it to grow and floursh. Look at the growth and high living standard of the West whose societies have been dominated by the Christitian faith. Their have been abnormalities in the West such as the inquisition and evil deeds done by individual priests, but these were notable exceptions not the overwhelming norm. The abnormalities are also not in keeping with the philosophy of Jesus.

I agree with EOC, and I think you would be hard pressed to substantiate a causal link between Christianity and Western prosperity.

The enlightenment, which often ran counter to Church teachings (not to mention threatening its power), is why the West has been prosperous.

[TSherbs]

Eric, I am also not sure that Jesus had as a requirement for his followers that they think that he is divine in the way that it is meant today. Those first men and women who dropped their nets and left their families were following a sense of spirit more than a doctrine of divinity (or trinity).

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[TSherbs]

I agree with EOC, and I think you would be hard pressed to substantiate a causal link between Christianity and Western prosperity.

The enlightenment, which often ran counter to Church teachings (not to mention threatening its power), is why the West has been prosperous.

Jared Diamond would agree with your objection.

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[EricTheRed]

Thanks for the comments and for allowing me to express my thoughts as well as ponder a subject that is much more important than an issue most people spend much time thinking about.

EOC - I had thought the Romans remained very powerful and prosperous for many hundreds of years after converting to Christianity but you caused me to do some research and I discovered the Romans did not become Christian until after the conversion of Emperor Constantine and the Edict of Milan in 313 AD. Rome which was the world's superpower and was founded in 673 BC and peaked in power in 117 AD, began suffering major territorial loss in 376 AD and continued to rapidly deteriorate until Emperor Romulus was deposed in 476 AD. Thanks for the insight.

TSherbs and DNeal - When I look at the record and really think about it, I realize you are correct that it is difficult to defend the proposition that the West was prosperous because of Christianity. However, I would point out the West did prosper while Christian and the Golden Rule, which is pushed by Christianity allowed the permissiveness necessary for the Enlightenment to firmly take root and spread its ideas.

TSherbs - I think the Apostles did believe Jesus was divine and that was a major reason they followed him at great risk to their own safety. I also believe Jesus subjectively was convinced he was divine. I wish he had been able to come down off that cross as I believe that our world would be a much better place if he had...

[Fermata]

Tomorrow at 1.00 I am going to be baptised as an elderly adult because it didn’t happen when I was a baby.

My faith has been rock solid since becoming a Christian more than 20 years ago and my believers baptism is an important part of that journey.

I am very pleased to have made this commitment.

[TSherbs]

Tomorrow at 1.00 I am going to be baptised as an elderly adult because it didn’t happen when I was a baby.

My faith has been rock solid since becoming a Christian more than 20 years ago and my believers baptism is an important part of that journey.

I am very pleased to have made this commitment.

Congrats

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