Definition of Christian

[TSherbs]

You don't know the Scripture which is why you never give the Scripture to reference what you say.

My emphasis. The inaccuracy of this charge against Chuck flabbergasted me. And I guffawed at it.

The following are Chuck's references to Biblical passages, just since September 1!

I searched the NASB 1995, and an interlinear Greek/English version. They each read Isaish or in Greek Esiea follow by the prophet. The KJV reads the prophets. Both Isaiah 40:3 and Mal. 3:1 read the same. It is the announcement of the forerunner or the messenger coming to make the ways straight and smooth for Messiah Jesus. There is nothing in this passage about the Kingdom because that isn't the verses purpose. That part comes later when Jesus says, "the time is fulfilled" the same in the Greek. He continued that the Kingdom has come near at hand, change how you think or repent, and believe the Message of the availability of the Kingdom.

Peter, James, and John were Jews. Paul was a Pharisee from the tribe of Benjemin. Were not the followers of Jesus Jews at Pentecost recipients of the HS? Not all Israel rejected Jesus. The first disciples were Jewish. I am however beginning to understand you are from a dispensational theology where since they think the Jews rejected Jesus, the kingdom coming is now being delayed. Someone might have wanted to tell the Luke, John, Peter, and Paul. You are waiting for something in the future and missing out on the kingdom which leads to spiritual transformation so that you can easily do what Jesus prescribed today.

It is not good news if you don't understand why you need to be saved. Saved from what? John the Baptist message was to change how you think so your sins can be forgiven, Mark 1:4 (in case you need a reference). BTW, the Greek reads the same. The salvation is of the soul giving it new life, one in the kingdom, doing what Jesus said, living well, enjoying the Father, the Son, and the HS.

A better message is the one preached by Jesus and echoed by the followers. It truly is sad that Jesus is ignored, and his word not taken seriously in order to maintain some theology. This good news is a available today to the Jewish people as it was then. There is not a special deal for anyone.

From Mark 1, "The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[a] the Son of God,[b] 2 as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”[c]—
3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’”[d]


Even an disinterested reader would know what the writer was saying, @Lees.

I am not ignoring the Old Testament, but something in Jesus message is new, it is different. Near or nearness of the Kingdom represents God coming near through Jesus, " After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

Jesus was saying the time had come, the kingdom is at hand, as close as the air that surrounds your body near. Believe this message and as John had said "I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit", not later, but now.

Jesus does purify. This radical change is the new birth, born again, spiritual transformation. It happens as we learn how to follow Jesus and do what he said to do. It is real and measurable. It can be experienced so that you will know it is for today.

If we think this is something for the future, it is because we are not doing what Jesus said to do in making students/disciples/apprentices of him. We are not operating in the Paraclete's provision. And, what you do not understand is that it is not just for Israel. It is for the Jew first, but also for the Greek. Paul understood this, the kingdom of God isn't about your dietary habits, but being right and just, peace with yourself and others, and a persistent and consistent sense of well being.

For me, nothing that you post sounds like good news, the sort that will be "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people."

Fair points to discuss. I recall this passage "Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”

I think he knew Jesus since they were related, but not that he was the expected Messiah. Later, while he was in prison, and when Jesus was not being the Messiah he expected, he sent some followers to inquire.

Eugene Peterson speculates that John could have been adopted into the Essene Community. John's parents would have been advanced in age. The Essenes had history of adopting. This would also explain his eating habit and dress, and him living in the desert.

What did Jesus say about keeping the law, the 10 rules of the road as I refer to them. He said that if one incorporates them into their daily living they will enjoy eternal living, Mark 10:19. Luke 10:28 repeats the same. ....

LeeS, you are becoming ridiculous with these wild charges.

[Chuck Naill]

I was in a Dispensational gathering for 17 years. They were wonderful people, but not many happy and very legalistic often. My primary problem was, and this is demonstrated by @Lees, I could never read the scriptures and come to a conclusion that a 1000 year reign was coming or that the gifts of the Spirit had ended when the "perfect" came. They told me the "perfect" was the completed canon or Bible. That didn't make sense as the writers didn't know they were making a compilation of their writings. I always suspected that other letters were written, and Paul indicates somewhere there were. In my Ryrie NASB, Dr. Ryier says what @Lees thinks, that since the Jews rejected Jesus, the Kingdom is now delayed. What??? How could you come to that conclusion when Paul, John, and Peter said what they did?

I've often imagined we are now in this Millennial Reign given the global success of the message of Jesus. A person once said that Jesus returns he's going to be angry. I immediately said, "well, that would be odd". Missionaries from other nations are coming to America.

Because of this Dispensational theology, Americans have become Zionists where the land is an essential part of the Kingdom although Jesus was not bound to a particular land mass. Of course, this is all explainable, and I am a "lost ball in tall weeds" for even suggesting differently.

Forgiving sin isn't hard for God. Abraham was a total screw up, but he trusted God and God said he was just and right with him. God is for us, not against us. Most of the world's problems occur because we decide to live contrary to how we are made to live well. We are full of contempt when we don't have to be and actually, our contempt does not remedy anything.

[Lees]

@Chuck Naill: concerning post #(1216)

No, you have no path for further discussion because you have been shown you are in error.

Oh, you say you are familiar with what I have said. I don't believe you. You're not familiar, because you make absurd statements about the Bible. You don't know the Scripture which is why you never give the Scripture to reference what you say.

If you actually knew the Scripture, you would not be running away.

You never left anything. You never had anything.

Lees

Not running away, but the reason I have remained engaged is to figure out why someone takes a clear passage like those we've discussed in Mark and invents a meaning rather than allowing the text to speak for itself.

Also, you said something about your position on end times and the hateful way you project on Jesus's return, this too was a clue.

Finally, the anger and contempt by which you post and you hyperfocus on sin. As if sin was the only reason Jesus came. It reduces the good news to sin management and heaven when you die, rather than spiritual transformation and relationship with the Trinitarian Community. It produces Christians that are frustrated with their lives and legalistic toward others. In your posts someone who disagrees is a liar or they are misrepresenting you.

I cannot and would never go back to a Dispensational view. Jesus said we would have experiential knowledge of truth and that would make us free. Truth also can make people mad. Again, people are not going to reject Jesus if they have experienced what he promised, but they will and should reject angry legalistic people screaming at them that they are sinful. The reason is simple, why would someone accept a teaching where the teacher is not someone they would want to turn into?

I didn't invent anything. I showed you Scripture which you deny.

Lees

[Chuck Naill]

@Chuck Naill: concerning post #(1216)

No, you have no path for further discussion because you have been shown you are in error.

Oh, you say you are familiar with what I have said. I don't believe you. You're not familiar, because you make absurd statements about the Bible. You don't know the Scripture which is why you never give the Scripture to reference what you say.

If you actually knew the Scripture, you would not be running away.

You never left anything. You never had anything.

Lees

Not running away, but the reason I have remained engaged is to figure out why someone takes a clear passage like those we've discussed in Mark and invents a meaning rather than allowing the text to speak for itself.

Also, you said something about your position on end times and the hateful way you project on Jesus's return, this too was a clue.

Finally, the anger and contempt by which you post and you hyperfocus on sin. As if sin was the only reason Jesus came. It reduces the good news to sin management and heaven when you die, rather than spiritual transformation and relationship with the Trinitarian Community. It produces Christians that are frustrated with their lives and legalistic toward others. In your posts someone who disagrees is a liar or they are misrepresenting you.

I cannot and would never go back to a Dispensational view. Jesus said we would have experiential knowledge of truth and that would make us free. Truth also can make people mad. Again, people are not going to reject Jesus if they have experienced what he promised, but they will and should reject angry legalistic people screaming at them that they are sinful. The reason is simple, why would someone accept a teaching where the teacher is not someone they would want to turn into?

I didn't invent anything. I showed you Scripture which you deny.

Lees

If the primary source, Jesus, said the kingdom is at hand, and you say it has been delayed, you invented something.

[Lees]

What did Jesus say about keeping the law, the 10 rules of the road as I refer to them. He said that if one incorporates them into their daily living they will enjoy eternal living, Mark 10:19. Luke 10:28 repeats the same. The question immediately is, how can I do this? The Pharisees tried to give a public image they were keeping the law. Jesus said their law keeping was only skin deep, it didn't affect their inner being. How is possible to routinely love one's enemies? Anyone can do a test on themselves. The next time someone is unkind or disrespectful, regardless of you outward reaction, what is going on inside? Are you just angry and don't show it, or does it truly have no affect? If no affect, were you born this way?

I am making an attempt to show that the Kingdom of God is available that produces an inner transformation, a rebirth, a Spiritual Formation from above that enables people to do what Jesus prescribed. I use the word prescribed rather than command, but they mean the same. When a medical professional writes a prescription it isn't a suggestion. In the hospital they are referred to as orders. Some orders are referred to as standing orders that are continual. Jesus standing orders follow the rules of the road, love God and each other.

If the Jews of Jesus day had the Kingdom of God available, how come they didn't enter it as Jesus prescribed before he was born? Why were the called-out ones, the church or followers of Jesus, later able to live by the Spirit instead of rule keeping. I contend they were made able by the Holy Spirit and them exercising the option of entering by apprenticeship to Jesus.

Christian today say we live by grace and not rule keeping. This has caused people to think loving God and each other no longer results in eternal living or living well today. Since Jesus said he didn't come to get rid of God's prescriptions for living well, the people who refer to themselves as Christans might want to reconsider if they think the rules of the road have gone by the way.

When a person lives in the engulfment of the Trinitarian Community and societies of Jesus, legalism is not produced.

No. You misunderstand (Mark 10:19) and (Luke 10:28). The man who came to Jesus asking how to obtain eternal life by inheritance. (Mark 10:17) Jesus immediately called his attention to the man's calling Jesus 'good'. Whereby Jesus said only God is good. Indicating no man is good enough to inheirit eternal life. (Mark 10:18) Then Jesus pointed the man to the law which the man knew. (Mark 10:19) In other words, just keep the Law and you will inherit eternal life.

In other words if any want to inherit eternal life without Jesus, just follow the law...and be sure not to break it, even once. For when you break it once, the whole law is broken. (James 2:10) Good luck.

The Kingdom of God was available to the Jews in Jesus day because He came offering it to them as prophesied in the Old Testament. The Kingdom didn't come because the Jews rejected their King, Jesus Christ.

But, just as Jesus came at the time appointed, so the Holy Spirit came at the time appointed. But the Holy Spirit didn't indwell a saved Israel, as prophesied. For Israel rejected her God. Instead the Holy Spirit indwelt the 'believing Jews' and Gentiles forming a new Body of believers, the Church. Made up of both Jew and Gentile. The Bride of Jesus Christ. (Eph. 5:22-23) The Church is not Israel. And Israel's salvation is yet future. (Rom. 11:25)

Lees

[Chuck Naill]

What did Jesus say about keeping the law, the 10 rules of the road as I refer to them. He said that if one incorporates them into their daily living they will enjoy eternal living, Mark 10:19. Luke 10:28 repeats the same. The question immediately is, how can I do this? The Pharisees tried to give a public image they were keeping the law. Jesus said their law keeping was only skin deep, it didn't affect their inner being. How is possible to routinely love one's enemies? Anyone can do a test on themselves. The next time someone is unkind or disrespectful, regardless of you outward reaction, what is going on inside? Are you just angry and don't show it, or does it truly have no affect? If no affect, were you born this way?

I am making an attempt to show that the Kingdom of God is available that produces an inner transformation, a rebirth, a Spiritual Formation from above that enables people to do what Jesus prescribed. I use the word prescribed rather than command, but they mean the same. When a medical professional writes a prescription it isn't a suggestion. In the hospital they are referred to as orders. Some orders are referred to as standing orders that are continual. Jesus standing orders follow the rules of the road, love God and each other.

If the Jews of Jesus day had the Kingdom of God available, how come they didn't enter it as Jesus prescribed before he was born? Why were the called-out ones, the church or followers of Jesus, later able to live by the Spirit instead of rule keeping. I contend they were made able by the Holy Spirit and them exercising the option of entering by apprenticeship to Jesus.

Christian today say we live by grace and not rule keeping. This has caused people to think loving God and each other no longer results in eternal living or living well today. Since Jesus said he didn't come to get rid of God's prescriptions for living well, the people who refer to themselves as Christans might want to reconsider if they think the rules of the road have gone by the way.

When a person lives in the engulfment of the Trinitarian Community and societies of Jesus, legalism is not produced.

No. You misunderstand (Mark 10:19) and (Luke 10:28). The man who came to Jesus asking how to obtain eternal life by inheritance. (Mark 10:17) Jesus immediately called his attention to the man's calling Jesus 'good'. Whereby Jesus said only God is good. Indicating no man is good enough to inheirit eternal life. (Mark 10:18) Then Jesus pointed the man to the law which the man knew. (Mark 10:19) In other words, just keep the Law and you will inherit eternal life.

In other words if any want to inherit eternal life without Jesus, just follow the law...and be sure not to break it, even once. For when you break it once, the whole law is broken. (James 2:10) Good luck.

The Kingdom of God was available to the Jews in Jesus day because He came offering it to them as prophesied in the Old Testament. The Kingdom didn't come because the Jews rejected their King, Jesus Christ.

But, just as Jesus came at the time appointed, so the Holy Spirit came at the time appointed. But the Holy Spirit didn't indwell a saved Israel, as prophesied. For Israel rejected her God. Instead the Holy Spirit indwelt the 'believing Jews' and Gentiles forming a new Body of believers, the Church. Made up of both Jew and Gentile. The Bride of Jesus Christ. (Eph. 5:22-23) The Church is not Israel. And Israel's salvation is yet future. (Rom. 11:25)

Lees

Or maybe you have misunderstood. The verses of the man who came to see Jesus can be read exactly what the verse says in plain Greek. Jesus has already explained or defined good. Nobody needs your Dispensational inventions.

You have been taught that eternal living is some magical event. What if eternal living took place while your body is alive and well?

When Jesus told the woman not to sin anymore, do you really think he thought she could? What about you, we've seen your "contrary to Jesus self", on fully display. What's more, you appear unrepentant.

But the "HS didn't indwell a saved Israel", in an excellent example of Dispensational invention. Romans 8 proves you wrong, @ Lees. What about the 12 who experienced the indwelling Spirit?? If it happens to one Jewish disciple of Jesus, it can happen to anyone.

So, Jesus didn't know what he was talking about?

Don't worry about keeping it because Abraham didn't.

According to everyone who wrote the NT, the kingdom was then available to anyone and everyone.

The reason you have to invent excuses or explanations is because of what you have taught how to change the clear reading of the scriptures.

[Lees]

@Chuck Naill: concerning post #(1226)

I just said what the verse said.

Well, eternal life is a miraculous event that only occurs when one places faith in the Person of Jesus Christ as Son of God and Saviour. No other way.

No, Jesus knew the woman would sin again. But Jesus spoke to a people under the law, just as He was under the Law. And that is the testimony of the Law.

I never claimed to be sinless. I never claimed to be found worthy under the Law. My only hope is in Jesus Christ.

How does (Rom. 8) prove me wrong? Where did the 12 experience the indwelling Holy Ghost?

I never said Jesus didn't know what He was talking about.

No, the Kingdom John the Baptist and Jesus and the disciples offered was to Israel alone. I have already showed you that. (Matt. 10:5-6)

No, what I have said is the plain reading of Scripture. You're the one presenting 'generalities" based on you not Scripture. You present a fog around your statements with no Scripture to support. And when Scripture is given, you deny it.

Lees

[Chuck Naill]

@Chuck Naill: concerning post #(1226)

I just said what the verse said.

Well, eternal life is a miraculous event that only occurs when one places faith in the Person of Jesus Christ as Son of God and Saviour. No other way.

No, Jesus knew the woman would sin again. But Jesus spoke to a people under the law, just as He was under the Law. And that is the testimony of the Law.

I never claimed to be sinless. I never claimed to be found worthy under the Law. My only hope is in Jesus Christ.

How does (Rom. 8) prove me wrong? Where did the 12 experience the indwelling Holy Ghost?

I never said Jesus didn't know what He was talking about.

No, the Kingdom John the Baptist and Jesus and the disciples offered was to Israel alone. I have already showed you that. (Matt. 10:5-6)

No, what I have said is the plain reading of Scripture. You're the one presenting 'generalities" based on you not Scripture. You present a fog around your statements with no Scripture to support. And when Scripture is given, you deny it.

Lees

You have a dispensational understanding. People then are the same today.

I didn't say you were without sin.

Romans 8 is, living in the Spirt rather than the "law of sin and death".

When you say the KOG isn't for today, you say Jesus didn't know what he was talking about.

Nope, can't be true. Acts 2 demonstrates your folly.

Generalities? I am presenting the very message of Jesus. "repent aka change you mind, for the Kingdom of heaven is within arms reach".

[Lees]

@Chuck Naill: concerning post #(1228)

Do you recognize that there is the Old and New Testament? If so, then you to have a 'dispensational understanding'. Which you want to deny. What is that supposed to mean...'people then are the same today'.

You claimed I appear unrepentant of some sin and am contrary to Jesus. As though I don't acknowledge my sins.

No. I said when the Holy Ghost came in (Acts 2) He didn't indwell a saved Israel. To which you said (Rom. 8) proves me wrong. But how? Show me where in (Rom. 8) the nation of Israel is saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And explain the verse I gave you which shows Israel has not yet been saved. (Rom. 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

I didn't say the Kingdom of God was not for today. I said that Kingdom that John the Baptist, Jesus, and the disciples preached, as promised in the Old Testament to Israel, did not come. And it didn't because of Israel's rejection of her Messiah. But it will come in a future day, as I just showed you in (Rom. 11:25) For now, any individual who places faith in the Person of Christ, Son of God and Saviour, is saved, indwelt by the Spirit, and is in the Kingdom of God as the Church. Not as Israel. Israel has yet to experience her national salvation with Messiah ruling and reigning in Jerusalem over the world.

No, (Acts 2) doesn't prove any folly on my part. Some believing Jews were saved, but the nation was not. When the nation experiences it's salvation, all of Israel will be saved. (Rom. 11:26) And Jesus Christ will have returned and begin the Kingdom rule from Jerusalem. Is Jesus on the throne in Jerusalem today? Has Israel turned to Christ as her Messiah?

You confuse the message of Jesus by applying to the Church what isn't said to the Church. Much of what Jesus said was not to the Church. You make no distinction. You just throw everything in a bag, shake it up, and say Jesus wants you to love everybody because God loves everyone of you. And with that you interpret all Scripture, even if it means denying Scripture.

Lees

[Chuck Naill]

@Chuck Naill: concerning post #(1228)

Do you recognize that there is the Old and New Testament? If so, then you to have a 'dispensational understanding'. Which you want to deny. What is that supposed to mean...'people then are the same today'.

You claimed I appear unrepentant of some sin and am contrary to Jesus. As though I don't acknowledge my sins.

No. I said when the Holy Ghost came in (Acts 2) He didn't indwell a saved Israel. To which you said (Rom. 8) proves me wrong. But how? Show me where in (Rom. 8) the nation of Israel is saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And explain the verse I gave you which shows Israel has not yet been saved. (Rom. 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

I didn't say the Kingdom of God was not for today. I said that Kingdom that John the Baptist, Jesus, and the disciples preached, as promised in the Old Testament to Israel, did not come. And it didn't because of Israel's rejection of her Messiah. But it will come in a future day, as I just showed you in (Rom. 11:25) For now, any individual who places faith in the Person of Christ, Son of God and Saviour, is saved, indwelt by the Spirit, and is in the Kingdom of God as the Church. Not as Israel. Israel has yet to experience her national salvation with Messiah ruling and reigning in Jerusalem over the world.

No, (Acts 2) doesn't prove any folly on my part. Some believing Jews were saved, but the nation was not. When the nation experiences it's salvation, all of Israel will be saved. (Rom. 11:26) And Jesus Christ will have returned and begin the Kingdom rule from Jerusalem. Is Jesus on the throne in Jerusalem today? Has Israel turned to Christ as her Messiah?

You confuse the message of Jesus by applying to the Church what isn't said to the Church. Much of what Jesus said was not to the Church. You make no distinction. You just throw everything in a bag, shake it up, and say Jesus wants you to love everybody because God loves everyone of you. And with that you interpret all Scripture, even if it means denying Scripture.

Lees

There is much to unpack that you posted @Lees, but just realize you have a habit of posting words that apparently you meant to say something else.

You have a future expectation that Israel as a nation will be saved. What this understanding does is ignore the millions of Jewish people who were not saved up to the point of Jesus return. Are they saved as dead people because they are Israel? Was there ever an historical time when all of Israel, in the OT, were following in the foot steps of Abraham? This led Paul to say that not all who are descended from Israel are Israel, Romans 9:6. You might choose to disagree with Paul, but his thesis was that both the Jew and Gentle were one under Christ, "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.", Colossians 3:11.

If you take a non dispensational view, the Kingdom is now and an option for anyone and everyone. We are not waiting for a future event to experience a life transformation. Current Jewish people are as welcome as any group of people, and the message of Jesus is as applicable to them as anyone and everyone.

Romans 7 and 8 is where Paul, a Jewish man from the tribe of Benjamin, gives us an understanding of his life before and after coming to understand the message of Jesus. Romans 7 depicts a life of sin and death where he tried to follow the law but couldn't. As you know, Paul was well educated in Jewish law. He was a Pharisee and a student of Gamaliel. He is a template for any Jewish person who would consider Jesus. Romans 8 is where Paul explains Kingdom living where it is no longer he who lived, but Christ in him. Everything fits together. With the Spirit in us, we come to naturally be able to keep the law and in doing so experience the life Jesus explained to the young man would occur by keeping the law. Sin, or living contrary to God's prescription, is no longer hanging over our heads, condemning us, but we are living by the Spirit, enjoying the intimacy of the Father, Jesus, and the Spirit of Christ in close relationship. First John is a beautiful portrayal of a life lived by the Holy Spirit if you want to study, "for this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments, aka prescriptions, and they are not a burden". The only way they cannot be a burden is living in Romans 8.

I prefer to use the Greek term ecclesia, the called out ones. Whoever exercises their option of entering this Kingdom of Jesus is a part of this society or community. They are the wheat sown among the tares. They may not even be visible l to you and I, but Jesus knows them and they know him. They simply took his offer and followed. As Jesus noted, it is this knowledge of him and not being busy for him that matters. It is abiding, remaining, lingering in him that we have life. When anyone decides to put their confidence in him, they are safe in a world of woe.

It should be noted in the Mark passage we've been discussion that immediately after Jesus says the time is up and the Kingdom is here, he offers people the opportunity to follow him. "The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. From John we learn it was always the intention of God to offer this life to anyone and everyone, not only just Israel. Note that these also are children of God.

[Lees]

@Chuck Naill; concerning post #(1230)

I'm not aware of any such habit.

Yes, I expect the nation Israel will be saved in the future. No, this position does not ignore millions of Jews who are not saved up to the point of Jesus return. Jews, just like Gentiles can be saved by placing faith in the Person of Jesus Christ. They in turn, are saved and indwelt by the Holy Ghost and become part of the Church. (Eph. 2:11-16) The Church was not revealed or known in the Old Testament. (Eph. 3:1-10) Please read these verses.

There never was a time when all Israel was saved. But there will be at a future date. (Rom. 11:26) No, I don't disagree with Paul in (Rom. 9:6). All of Israel are not Israel. That means not all Jews or Israelites of the flesh, are the Israel of God. The true Israelite is a believer in God. The true Israelite must be of the flesh born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and he must be of faith in God. Yes, I agree with (Co. 3:11). In Christ we all are Christian part of One Body, the Church. The same can be said of the Church. Many are identified as 'Christian' as they are part of visible church on earth. But many of these are not Christian though they identify as Christian.

Well, I explained this before. Anyone who places faith in the Person of Christ as the Son of God and Saviour, is born-again, indwelt by the Holy Ghost, and is in the Kingdom of God. So the Kingdom of God always exist and the believers are always in it. But, that Kingdom that John the Baptist preached, and Jesus preached, and the disciples preached at the first, is Gods Kingdom rule on the physical earth, which is laid out in the Old Testament with Christ ruling in Jerusalem, in Israel, over the world. That Kingdom was at hand, but was rejected by Israel. It will come at a future date after the fulness of the Gentiles is finished. (Rom.11:25) (Rev. 11:15)

An important point here is to note, which I alluded to earlier somewhere, that (Matthew) is the Gospel of the Kingdom. The Kingdom is spoken of in the others also, but it is the theme of (Matthew) This why in (Matthew) the Kingdom is identified as the 'Kingdom of Heaven'. No where else is this term used. It is unique to (Matthew) The Kingdom preached in (Matthew) is that literal, physical, rule of Christ Bodily on earth, for 1000 years. The Millennial reign. (Rev. 20:4-7) This Kingdom is that promised in the Old Testament to Israel.

Yes, Paul was a Jew before the Church began. But the Lord opened his eyes and he became a Christian. And everything you say about (Rom. 7-8) pertains to the Christian, the Church. It doesn't prove that the nation Israel received it's salvation and is indwelt by the Holy Ghost. And yes, the term 'ecclesia' is used to identify the Church.

Yes, 'that which was His own' was Israel. And they rejected Him, thus rejecting the Kingdom. But those who did receive Him would become the children of God because they believed on His name. (John 1:9-13) And they would become the Church, the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ. Of course the offer to be saved, to be born-again is to all. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. That is the Gospel of Grace which we preach.

But the Gospel of the Kingdom was to Israel alone.

Lees

[Chuck Naill]

Thank you for explaining your interpretations. While I cannot reasonably agree simply because I cannot read the texts you use to come up with the interpretations, nor would most readers. However, if you hold to a certain eschatology, you have to support them with passages that have to be explained from clear reading to a more privately constructed one.

What I see is your biggest challenge is to show that mass salvation is possible, and that Jesus had a message for the Jews and one for everyone else. I see no evidence to support either.

For you, this is the message, "Gentiles can be saved by placing faith in the Person of Jesus Christ. They in turn, are saved and indwelt by the Holy Ghost and become part of the Church.". The problem for me is if this is the message, why does the American church look as it does?

I prefer this one because it is one that Jesus taught, repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. We enter this kingdom by becoming students of Jesus so that we come, over time, to be able to live as he prescribed, which mean, loving others as we love ourselves, loving our enemies, not having lust, anger ,and contempt in our inner person. This can be said to having been born again. This is for anyone and everyone who is engulfed by the father, Son, and HS, with the realization that we are never left as orphans as he is with us.

Which one sounds like good news? The one you came up with or the one Jesus preached?

[Chuck Naill]

What does it mean to have a good life and be a good person? Is either possible? This is an ancient question. Philosophy tries to answer or explain. Jesus addressed these two questions.

[Lees]

Thank you for explaining your interpretations. While I cannot reasonably agree simply because I cannot read the texts you use to come up with the interpretations, nor would most readers. However, if you hold to a certain eschatology, you have to support them with passages that have to be explained from clear reading to a more privately constructed one.

What I see is your biggest challenge is to show that mass salvation is possible, and that Jesus had a message for the Jews and one for everyone else. I see no evidence to support either.

For you, this is the message, "Gentiles can be saved by placing faith in the Person of Jesus Christ. They in turn, are saved and indwelt by the Holy Ghost and become part of the Church.". The problem for me is if this is the message, why does the American church look as it does?

I prefer this one because it is one that Jesus taught, repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. We enter this kingdom by becoming students of Jesus so that we come, over time, to be able to live as he prescribed, which mean, loving others as we love ourselves, loving our enemies, not having lust, anger ,and contempt in our inner person. This can be said to having been born again. This is for anyone and everyone who is engulfed by the father, Son, and HS, with the realization that we are never left as orphans as he is with us.

Which one sounds like good news? The one you came up with or the one Jesus preached?

That is strange. why can't you read the Bible verses I gave? Do you own a Bible? So, don't thank me when you pretend that Bible verses were not given when they were. You just can't answer them.

I gave you verses that explained and support in clear reading. You disagree but you don't show how they don't explain. Again, you rely only on your word. You dismiss the Scripture and cannot explain the clear Scripture. So you expect everyone to believe 'you'. You offer no Scripture.

No, again you misrepresent what I said. Both Jew and Gentile can be saved by placing faith in the Person of Jesus Christ. And that makes up the Church, the Body of Christ. The American Church, and the Church universal looks as it does today because of the work of Satan in his attempts to destroy the Church of Jesus Christ. What a surprise? In every work of God, Satan has his infiltrators. Remember Judas?

Yes, you prefer the Gospel of the Kingdom. But it is not to you. It is to the nation of Israel. Yet you prefer it to the Gospel of Grace. Why? Because you want to be perceived as doing good. You want to be perceived as being found worthy of God to enter Heaven. Your deeds and works measured up in the balance. You don't need grace. You don't even need the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Why should you? You measure up. Good luck. Be sure to tell the Father in that day, Your Son didn't have to die because we can measure up. What an abomination you speak.

Yours is not good news. It is a lie straight out of hell.

And, by the way, why did you not answer my question concerning the Old and New Testament. If you hold to the Old and New Testament, you are dispensational....correct? That is a question by the way.

Lees

[Chuck Naill]

Thank you for explaining your interpretations. While I cannot reasonably agree simply because I cannot read the texts you use to come up with the interpretations, nor would most readers. However, if you hold to a certain eschatology, you have to support them with passages that have to be explained from clear reading to a more privately constructed one.

What I see is your biggest challenge is to show that mass salvation is possible, and that Jesus had a message for the Jews and one for everyone else. I see no evidence to support either.

For you, this is the message, "Gentiles can be saved by placing faith in the Person of Jesus Christ. They in turn, are saved and indwelt by the Holy Ghost and become part of the Church.". The problem for me is if this is the message, why does the American church look as it does?

I prefer this one because it is one that Jesus taught, repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. We enter this kingdom by becoming students of Jesus so that we come, over time, to be able to live as he prescribed, which mean, loving others as we love ourselves, loving our enemies, not having lust, anger ,and contempt in our inner person. This can be said to having been born again. This is for anyone and everyone who is engulfed by the father, Son, and HS, with the realization that we are never left as orphans as he is with us.

Which one sounds like good news? The one you came up with or the one Jesus preached?

That is strange. why can't you read the Bible verses I gave? Do you own a Bible? So, don't thank me when you pretend that Bible verses were not given when they were. You just can't answer them.

I gave you verses that explained and support in clear reading. You disagree but you don't show how they don't explain. Again, you rely only on your word. You dismiss the Scripture and cannot explain the clear Scripture. So you expect everyone to believe 'you'. You offer no Scripture.

No, again you misrepresent what I said. Both Jew and Gentile can be saved by placing faith in the Person of Jesus Christ. And that makes up the Church, the Body of Christ. The American Church, and the Church universal looks as it does today because of the work of Satan in his attempts to destroy the Church of Jesus Christ. What a surprise? In every work of God, Satan has his infiltrators. Remember Judas?

Yes, you prefer the Gospel of the Kingdom. But it is not to you. It is to the nation of Israel. Yet you prefer it to the Gospel of Grace. Why? Because you want to be perceived as doing good. You want to be perceived as being found worthy of God to enter Heaven. Your deeds and works measured up in the balance. You don't need grace. You don't even need the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Why should you? You measure up. Good luck. Be sure to tell the Father in that day, Your Son didn't have to die because we can measure up. What an abomination you speak.

Yours is not good news. It is a lie straight out of hell.

And, by the way, why did you not answer my question concerning the Old and New Testament. If you hold to the Old and New Testament, you are dispensational....correct? That is a question by the way.

Lees

Note that Paul, a Pharisee and a Jewish man, states in Romans 4 that Abraham was given a promise to his descendants that he would be heir of the World, would not come through rule keeping, but through the rightness that comes from faith. Paul is saying that our justification, being a Jew or Gentile, is derived not by rule keeping, but our confidence in what God is doing in our lives.

Again, I did not misrepresent you.

That you think the good news of the Kingdom is not founded on scripture, but some sort of eschatological view of Israel. Jesus said to make disciples of all nations. Clearly Jesus was not limiting his message to Israel. If you prefer an OT idea, Abraham was told he would be a blessing to all nations, in Genesis 18.

What I prefer about the Gospel of the Kingdom has nothing to do with not wanting a "gospel of grace". When we do good or seek to do good to others, we are not negating grace. Grace is not opposed to doing but opposed to earning. Loving others as you love yourself isn't earning something from God. Loving others as you love yourselves produces a good way of living. However, that you think doing good is earning is noteworthy. You get it. For you, a Christain, as they say, "isn't perfect, just forgiven". This allows those in American churches to be unkind, because kindness isn't necessary. The Ten Commandments is something on the wall, but not in the heart. Being born again is reduced to saying you made Jesus your personal savior whether your life shows it or not.

Further, Paul tells the believers in Corinth they may give all they have to the poor, but if they have no love, they accomplish nothing. Jesus said first make peace with your brother because that is more important than giving your offerings. And, if Jesus expected us to not do what he taught, why did he tell his followers to make disciples and instruct them how to do what he said?

This may have been the first time your thoughts have been challenged which probably explains your hostility. As I said before, people are not rejecting Jesus, they are rejecting people who think and act as you do. What I hope for is that you will reconsider what you have been taught, because no one can make an objective reading of the scriptures and come to the understandings that you communicate here. You had to have been told the gospel for the Jewish people is different from that of the Gentiles. That you think being disciples of Jesus isn't even something to consider had to come from somewhere. The idea that being good is somehow not a part of grace is suspicious of a teaching. Only by being spiritually transformed are we able to do good, and lover others.

Given your posts about race and slavery tells me you have been misled at some time. What you said about Arlington and Lee is noteworthy. What I am suggesting is, get your version of choice and begin to study one person, Jesus. Note not only what he said, but how he said it. Note his kindness and love. Notice that he was active, he did the work necessary to accomplish his commission. Then, as you see how Jesus lived, begin to put on foot in front of the other to follow only him. For a month study only Jesus. Become his student, for just one month. Ask him to help you understand what he wants you to understand, not anything that I or anyone else says or thinks. This shouldn't feel heavy or complicated. Give yourself time for solitude and silence. If you wake up during the night, meditate on what you are learning in the school of Jesus.

If you do this, over time, you will notice a change. Don't be concerned if the process is slow or you take two steps forward and one step back. His yoke is easy, and his burden isn't heavy. Go easy on yourself. Work his words into your life, and if you do, you will be like a wise master builder where the storms of life cannot destroy. because your foundation is rock solid.

[Chuck Naill]

The message Jesus preached form Mark 1, "After John was arrested, Jesus went to Galilee preaching the Message of God: “Time’s up! God’s kingdom is here. Change your life and believe the Message.”

The very next verse, " Passing along the beach of Lake Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew net-fishing. Fishing was their regular work. Jesus said to them, “Come with me. I’ll make a new kind of fisherman out of you. I’ll show you how to catch men and women instead of perch and bass.” They didn’t ask questions. They dropped their nets and followed."

Notice he didn't say anything about sin or eternal life in his message. Not that those are unimportant, but that's not the message. The message is the kingdom has come.

In my NASB, which is a Charles Ryrie study Bible, He has a note in the margin which reads, "However, the people rejected rather than accept him and the fulfillment of the Kingdom promises had to be delayed until God's purpose of saving Jews and Gentiles and forming his church was completed. Then Christ will return and set up God's kingdom on the Earth".

Now compare what Ryrie says with what Jesus said or those that followed him says regarding this kingdom. In the 1990's I became interested in the Baptism by or with the Holy Spirit. My Dispensational teacher said what happened in the NT times had passed away. I was unable to discover by reading the Bible the things of the Spirit had passed away.

Regarding the end times, Acts chapter 1 is helpful. His followers asked if now was when Jesus would restore the kingdom to Israel. Jesus responded that it wasn't for them to know what God as in store. Then he said, you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you. and you shall be my witnesses in all of Judea, Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the Earth.

[TSherbs]

Occasionally on this thread, the topic of the validity of certain translations of the Bible has arisen. I have been following this Biblical translation content creator for a while and have a learned a lot about the history of translations and the importance of knowing the original languages at a scholarly level (which I sure do not, at all!)

Anyway, here is Dan McClellan on a certain passage in the KJV which turns out to have a change in it from the earlier copies that matters a lot:

Just an example as a cautionary lesson toward becoming fixated on "legitimate" and "illegitimate" texts.

[Chuck Naill]

I need to replace my Greek/English NT. I gave mine to someone. It is an invaluable Biblical resource.

[Lees]

@Chuck Naill: considering post #(1235)

Yes, both Jew and Gentile are justified by faith. And you're correct, our justification is not accomplished by rule keeping. But neither is it accomplished as you say by 'our confidence in what God is doing in our lives'. It is done in the Old and New Testaments, by faith and it is always faith concerning the Person of Jesus Christ. Concerning faith in the Old Testament, it had to do with the 'seed' promise in (Gen. 3:15). Later to Abraham. (Gen.15:5-6) And that Seed was Christ. (Gal. 3:16)

Of course the Gospel of the Kingdom is founded on Scripture. It's just not in play at this time. Making disciples of all nations pertains to the Church, not Israel. (Matt. 28:19) by that time the offer of the Kingdom to Israel had been withdrawn. (Matt. 10:6) "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand." The Gospel of the Kingdom was withdrawn because Israel rejected her Messiah. Now a new Body of believers is formed, the Church. And individual Jews and Gentiles both come into the Church by faith in the Person of Christ.

Grace is opposed to entering eternal life through 'earning'. Eternal life is obtained solely by faith in Christ as Son of God and Saviour. After one has obtained that eternal life and has the Holy Ghost, then he proceeds in his life long walk of faith. Which will be judged and rewarded by God one day. (1 Cor. 3:11-15)

My hostility? Trying to paint that scarecrow?

I have never said the Gospel today is different for both Jew and Gentile. That is another misreprentation.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Lees

[Chuck Naill]

@Chuck Naill: considering post #(1235)

Yes, both Jew and Gentile are justified by faith. And you're correct, our justification is not accomplished by rule keeping. But neither is it accomplished as you say by 'our confidence in what God is doing in our lives'. It is done in the Old and New Testaments, by faith and it is always faith concerning the Person of Jesus Christ. Concerning faith in the Old Testament, it had to do with the 'seed' promise in (Gen. 3:15). Later to Abraham. (Gen.15:5-6) And that Seed was Christ. (Gal. 3:16)

Of course the Gospel of the Kingdom is founded on Scripture. It's just not in play at this time. Making disciples of all nations pertains to the Church, not Israel. (Matt. 28:19) by that time the offer of the Kingdom to Israel had been withdrawn. (Matt. 10:6) "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand." The Gospel of the Kingdom was withdrawn because Israel rejected her Messiah. Now a new Body of believers is formed, the Church. And individual Jews and Gentiles both come into the Church by faith in the Person of Christ.

Grace is opposed to entering eternal life through 'earning'. Eternal life is obtained solely by faith in Christ as Son of God and Saviour. After one has obtained that eternal life and has the Holy Ghost, then he proceeds in his life long walk of faith. Which will be judged and rewarded by God one day. (1 Cor. 3:11-15)

My hostility? Trying to paint that scarecrow?

I have never said the Gospel today is different for both Jew and Gentile. That is another misreprentation.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Lees

See the emboldened. Jesus said the Kingdom had come and never said it was delayed, or that there was a possibility of it being delayed, or that if the Jews rejected there might be a delayed. Somebody has invented this, and you have accepted it. Most of what you post cannot be supported by the scriptures. It is your learned interpretations that you are clinging to.

Paul, Peter, John, or Luke haven't provided a possibility the kingdom might be delayed. The idea that it is delayed is a Dispensational idea not is not based on scripture. It is an invention to support an eschatology and an interpretation of Revelation. Ironically, Revelation 1:1 explains clearly what the book is about.

If what God is doing in your life is of no interest, what you have is a theory.

Well, obviously you are on edge given how often anyone that disagrees with you is either a liar or has misinterpreted something.