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    Default Definition of Christian

    I was raised a Catholic but I haven't been to a church in a long while. As I read and learn, I started to question and I no longer believe in divinity of Jesus. I still believe in God. What does that make me?

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Actually I have had a thread that's so far been running for twelve years on "What is Christianity." and so far no one answer has emerged. Instead what has been presented has been quite a few different definition with many claiming to be the "True Christianity™".

    What ever it is, it's pretty clear that Jesus if Jesus actually existed was not a Christian but rather a nice Jewish boy.

    As a cradle Creedal Christian I find the subject fascinating and the assumptions simply mindblowing. An example is the assumption that there is such a thing as "The Bible™" when in fact there are a whole host of different Canons, the shortest including only the first five books of the Old Testament, the Torah, and excluding the rest of the Tanakh and all of the New Testament. Their reasoning (and it seems valid) is that as Christians the basis should be those books canonized while Jesus lived. Another of the oldest Christian traditions and churches actually has two Canons, a long and short Canon with the long canon including over 80 books.

    A second common but amazing belief seems to be that "The Bible™" is only one book and not an anthology of anthologies written by mostly unknown authors over uncounted periods of time edited by unknown editors and still later redacted and translated and edited yet again, often for social and political reasons instead of theological ones.

    After all, the various creeds were also trying to define Christianity which may explain why we have so many different creeds.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    If you go all the way back to our oldest copies, you will find that the translations don't change. Look at the Dead Sea Scrolls.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy_Bear View Post
    If you go all the way back to our oldest copies, you will find that the translations don't change. Look at the Dead Sea Scrolls.
    Actually the copies do change and that is even true in the Dead Sea Scrolls. But of course, the Dead Sea Scrolls have almost nothing to do with Christianity.

    Also, if it were possible to talk to any of the folk that collected those scrolls you would find that the one thing they could all agree on was that Jesus is not the Messiah or the Son of God.
    Last edited by jar; October 22nd, 2016 at 06:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    A second common but amazing belief seems to be that "The Bible™" is only one book and not an anthology of anthologies written by mostly unknown authors over uncounted periods of time edited by unknown editors and still later redacted and translated and edited yet again, often for social and political reasons instead of theological ones.
    It's staggering the many people who have no understanding of the origins and many (mis)translations of the bible. Which would bring into question many of the words within, and their true origins. I see many unthinkingly reciting incarnations by rote.

    To back up to the original question for a moment, it depends on your version of 'true' Christian. Is it one who take the bible literally as the word of god? If so, you would have to do as the clergy do, and carefully cherry pick the good from the hateful, the plentiful calls for genocide and infanticide, and the out of date rules that were meant for a nomadic and peasant tribe. The word of this god is questionable in my atheist view, as this all powerful and omnipotent being also seems to suffer from a needy inferiority complex of schizophrenic and psychopathic proportions. Almost humanoid, really...

    Also, many evangelical versions of 'good Christians' aren't happy to leave others to be good, moral people without a magical rudder, and will not rest until everyone else is also Christian, and pay ongoing subscriptions.

    Back to the mistranslations. Original documents as stated above are a cobbled together tome of many unknown authors, from different languages and points in time. Not least of which, the word Virgin has been mistranslated from the original languages which meant young woman or maiden. The world's biggest cult has sprung from such misappropriations.

    Most modern bibles were taken from the King James version of 400+ years ago, which has provided us the most lyrical and poetical version; providing a common language of references that rivals Shakespeare. Most of us were either taught these, or picked them up from the vernacular. It's probably one of the reasons, along with people's willingness to suspend disbelief and/or fear of death, and the enormous power of churches, that religion is as large an entity as it is.

    Many modern bibles have stripped the KJ of virtually all of its lyrical power, in order to make it easier to understand. Or to provide clearer orders. Seems to be that people find poetry a bit to hard to digest in the modern age and it's become a tool of utility. But these again, add yet more layers of mistranslation, as modern authors seek to apply their own agendas on certain parts of the text for their own needs. To aptly quote the "professional" atheist, Christopher Hitchens, the constant meddling and re-purposing is, "Further demonstration that religion is man made, with inky human fingerprints all over its supposedly inspired and unalterable texts."
    Last edited by Drubbing; February 19th, 2018 at 10:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Drubbing View Post
    Most modern bibles were taken from the King James version of 400+ years ago, which has provided us the most lyrical and poetical version; providing a common language of references that rivals Shakespeare. Most of us were either taught these, or picked them up from the vernacular. It's probably one of the reasons, along with people's willingness to suspend disbelief and/or fear of death, and the enormous power of churches, that religion is as large an entity as it is.
    It is also forgotten that the Authorized King James Version of the Bible was far more a political creation than a theological one. James I & VI was well aware that the great threat to the civilization of that period was Christianity's inability to get along between Chapters of Club Christian. Even a monarch was not secure and safe as his family history made clear. The KJV was an attempt to tone down the level of animosity between the two primary Chapters of Club Christian in the Islands, to broker an "I can Live with that" acceptance from both parties like Edwards earlier creation of the Book of Common Prayer. The secondary but near equal purpose was to provide a theological basis for the Divine Right of Kings and support his other writings on that topic.

    Unfortunately for his son Charles, even that effort failed.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drubbing View Post
    Most modern bibles were taken from the King James version of 400+ years ago, which has provided us the most lyrical and poetical version; providing a common language of references that rivals Shakespeare. Most of us were either taught these, or picked them up from the vernacular. It's probably one of the reasons, along with people's willingness to suspend disbelief and/or fear of death, and the enormous power of churches, that religion is as large an entity as it is.
    It is also forgotten that the Authorized King James Version of the Bible was far more a political creation than a theological one. James I & VI was well aware that the great threat to the civilization of that period was Christianity's inability to get along between Chapters of Club Christian. Even a monarch was not secure and safe as his family history made clear. The KJV was an attempt to tone down the level of animosity between the two primary Chapters of Club Christian in the Islands, to broker an "I can Live with that" acceptance from both parties like Edwards earlier creation of the Book of Common Prayer. The secondary but near equal purpose was to provide a theological basis for the Divine Right of Kings and support his other writings on that topic.

    Unfortunately for his son Charles, even that effort failed.
    Yes, well said on the historical significance. It only provides further proof bibles of all versions are the product of men, which still leaves me in awe of people's gullibility in believing these contain the words of an omnipotent being.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Drubbing View Post

    Yes, well said on the historical significance. It only provides further proof bibles of all versions are the product of men, which still leaves me in awe of people's gullibility in believing these contain the words of an omnipotent being.
    You're fairly new here so just some background to place what I post in context.

    I am a devout Cradle Creedal Christian, do believe in God and that there was a Jesus who did teach and did rise from the dead and ascend into heaven and who will judge me after I die, I was raised in a Christian family, am a member of a recognized Christian denomination, was educated in a Christian school, helped found a new parish and build their first worship place, have been a Sunday school teacher for kids and adults and have created quite a few Christian church websites.

    Now back to the topic.

    That is a common human failing but not really the fault of the authors of the stories and partially the fault of those creating a "Bible" but mostly the fault of those marketing Christianity. The idea that there is such a things as "The Bible™" and that it is one book with one story and one narrative that is just about Jesus is a creation of certain chapters of Club Christian. Hebrews understood correctly that the stories in what we call the Old Testament were separate, individual stories and each had its own purpose. They understood not all were about God and absolutely none of the Old Testament tales were about Jesus.

    But if you actually read those stories the God character is generally not omnipotent or omniscient or always honest or always just or always playing fair. In fact the God character in a story is the God character created by the author to carry along the actual purpose of the story.

    The much newer, much more recent God character found in the Genesis 1 story is omniscient and omnipotent but also aloof, separate and not having any interaction with the things created beyond looking at them and declaring them good. But the purpose of the Gen 1 story is not the God character but rather the very important to Judaism concept of the Sacred Week and the Sabbath.

    The God character in the much older story found in Genesis 2&3 is definitely not omniscient or omnipotent or honest and in fact rather bumbling and learning on the job. But it is the right character for the story that is actually a Just So story explaining why we have to farm instead of just being hunter gatherers, why child birth seemed so much more painful for humans than for the other animals, why we fear snakes or get old and die or have a society based on rules of conduct or need to make clothes instead of having a built in coat like the other animals.

    Genesis 11 is yet another Just So story; this time the purpose of the story is to explain why not everyone speaks the same language.

    The God in the Exodus story is a really nasty piece of work who does not keep his word and punishes people simply to show that He can punish people; going so far as to change the persons mind even after the person agrees to God's demands just to punish the person even more. That God even goes so far as to punish the story protagonist just for a minor infraction when the protagonist places his duty to protect those in his care over the commands from that God. But again, it is the right God for that story, the story about the founding of a peoples apart, the property literally of their God.

    Much of the Old Testament tales are pure politics; who's gonna be in charge, the Priests or a secular King or Prince? What are the duties, rights and prerogatives of each tribe? Which tribes are allied right now?

    As the tribes unified into quasi kingdoms they each developed their own Chapter of Club Hebrew and with the diaspora into many chapters of Club Hebrew, each claiming to be the TRUE Hebrew.

    And that is reflect again in the stories when seen individually. The God and even the actual titles used in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2&3 are different and from different eras and cultures. There is not one Flood story but two mutually exclusive flood story all mixed up together. The stories reflect political reality of a period; Kings versus Priests; Judah versus Israel; changing allegiances of the tribes; the attempt at restoration of Judaism when threatened by the comfort and prosperity and acceptance of the Jews in Exile and the marketing campaign to get them to physically return to Palestine.

    But in much of Christianity we fail to teach kids these basics and instead resort to unthinking acceptance of dogma, proof texts, bumper sticker theology, denial of reality and we get exactly what we create. All the errors found how Christianity teaches the Old Testament are equally valid when looking at how much if not most of modern Christianity teaches the New Testament with the additional sin of taking things totally out of context and then actually misrepresent what the passage meant.

    And don't get me started on canons and creeds and utter nonsense and carny palm the pea dishonesty like the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy.
    Last edited by jar; March 18th, 2018 at 07:03 AM. Reason: appalin spallin

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    There are some simplicities in fields of complexity. In the doctrines of all the major branches of Christianity for all their dfferences, Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Episcopalianism and (in most larger denominations) Protestantism all share the belief that God is a Trinity of three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit/Ghost and that Jesus is the second Person incarnated and therefore divine. One can obviously assent or dissent: that is the belief of the bodies to which the vast majority of Christians belong.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by checkrail View Post
    There are some simplicities in fields of complexity. In the doctrines of all the major branches of Christianity for all their dfferences, Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Episcopalianism and (in most larger denominations) Protestantism all share the belief that God is a Trinity of three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit/Ghost and that Jesus is the second Person incarnated and therefore divine. One can obviously assent or dissent: that is the belief of the bodies to which the vast majority of Christians belong.
    That is one way to box Christianity; into two groups, the Trinitarians and Non-Trinitarians and so a possible definition might be Christians believe in a divine (kinda because even there there are further differing definitions) and can be Trinitarians or Non-Trinitarians.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    That is not exactly what I was meant. In terms of their professed doctrine those bodies believe that a Trinitarian belief and belief in the divinity of Jesus are essential characteristics of Christianity.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by checkrail View Post
    That is not exactly what I was meant. In terms of their professed doctrine those bodies believe that a Trinitarian belief and belief in the divinity of Jesus are essential characteristics of Christianity.
    But there are non-Trinitarians who also believe that the Trinitarians have it wrong.

    What makes one group correct?

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by checkrail View Post
    That is not exactly what I was meant. In terms of their professed doctrine those bodies believe that a Trinitarian belief and belief in the divinity of Jesus are essential characteristics of Christianity.
    But there are non-Trinitarians who also believe that the Trinitarians have it wrong.

    What makes one group correct?
    Most theologians and believers have looked at the Christian message and have located themselves in Trinitarian bodies which gives that doctrine a certain authority. It is obviously a matter for one's own judgment whether that kind of majoritarian argument carrries weight.
    What is quite certain is that Jesus cannot be the Son of God and not Son of God; the Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian views cannot both valid. But as to who decides who is correct, I reckon the individual has to decide for him-/herself based on his/her evaluation of the evidence.

    To the OP:
    Sorry. I have not directly addressed your question previously. If your belief in God remains inspired by the life of Christ but with divinity abstracted, then broadly Unitarian would possibly be the answer.
    Last edited by checkrail; March 19th, 2016 at 05:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by checkrail View Post
    That is not exactly what I was meant. In terms of their professed doctrine those bodies believe that a Trinitarian belief and belief in the divinity of Jesus are essential characteristics of Christianity.
    But there are non-Trinitarians who also believe that the Trinitarians have it wrong.

    What makes one group correct?
    That's easy. If a group's beliefs corresponded to objective reality, that would make it correct.
    How to determine whether or not a belief corresponds to objective reality (i. e., is true) is another discussion, however, and when the subject matter of the belief relates to something that no one this side of the grave can have first-hand knowledge of is yet another.
    Last edited by calamum; April 17th, 2018 at 04:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    That is one way to box Christianity; into two groups, the Trinitarians and Non-Trinitarians...
    Quote Originally Posted by checkrail View Post
    ... a Trinitarian belief and belief in the divinity of Jesus are essential characteristics of Christianity.
    My understanding of being a Christian aligns with checkrail. As far as I know, Non-Trinitarian doesn't believe in divinity of Christ, thus, by definition, cannot be called Christian. That's why Non-Trinitarian sects such Socians and Brethrens were deemed heretical and persecuted. In that vein, Unitarians should not be called Christian as well per conventional definition.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Wait wait I think I know this one, it's Arianism isn't it?
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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Flounder View Post
    Wait wait I think I know this one, it's Arianism isn't it?
    There are other possibilities.

    One involves the term "incarnate" which carries a meaning beyond simply sharing or appearing as but rather becoming fully and completely.

    In this version of Christianity the Sacrifice is not Jesus death (after all his death was not unusual, in fact two others died the same way the same day at the same location) but rather God becoming just man, the creator of all that is reduced to an infant, unable to focus his eyes, feed himself, control his bowels, talk, understand, walk or even crawl. It is God becoming man to experience what being man is, to teach, to show by example, to live and to eventually die. In this version Jesus while on the Earth is fully and completely human.

    Before Jesus birth and after the ascension Jesus may well be divine and in this version of Christianity members believe that before birth and after ascension Jesus is divine.

    This version does not make God look as utterly stupid as the blood sacrifice version.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Flounder View Post
    Wait wait I think I know this one, it's Arianism isn't it?
    I had to look this up. Apparently Arianism is another one of many that falls under Non-Trinitarianism.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by RNHC View Post
    I was raised a Catholic but I haven't been to a church in a long while. As I read and learn, I started to question and I no longer believe in divinity of Jesus. I still believe in God. What does that make me?

    A deist

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    I wonder if some people are a little disillusioned with The Bible. I ran into an argument elsewhere about Deuteronomy and someone seemed to defend things in it saying it was the civil law of the land. Some verses seem to have barbaric punishments/consequences (You must purge the evil from among you - seems to apply to sex before marriage, adultery, worshippers of other gods), yet if these were carried out in this day and age... you'd end up in prison. Perhaps The Bible should be revised for this period in time.

    There was a "prank" video I think in The Netherlands (might have been Denmark) - the comedians wrapped up a Bible in a Qu'ran cover and went round reading it out to people, some of the more questionable in this day and age parts. Some were utterly shocked at the end on finding out it was the Bible and not the Qu'ran.

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