"miseducation"
Re: What should be the goal of education?
"miseducation"
Re: What should be the goal of education?
Wow, you've got some biases and over generalizations there, Chip. LOL!!Originally Posted by Chip
“He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8
Re: What should be the goal of education?
Well, you might think of it this way, Chuck: to an athiest (or very strong skeptic), ALL religious instruction in home or church or school that attempts to inculcate a belief in a "god" and in the priveleged status of the believers of any "god" is nothing more than a giant totalitarian lie meant to reinforce the power structure of their believers' culture and to delegitimize the "gods" and beliefs of the other faiths.
Re: What should be the goal of education?
If ALL religious instruction is an inculcation, the same would be true to unstill in a student that all gods are myths. Better to teach your child how to think correctly or critically, which I believe homeschooling can afford. At least in discipleship, to decide to be one is personal. You cannot be a disciple simply because your parent or teacher is one.
Being indoctrinated can be humiliating when you discover that you are. Folks can be indoctrinated and not realized they are. It is better to consider what others think and hopefully they will afford you the same freedom.
“He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8
Re: What should be the goal of education?
Not if no "gods" exist. This would be like saying that both accepting and denying gravity as a force in the universe is "myth" making, a highly dubious position.
Of course, it "can." But how often does it? Two thirds of homeschoolers in the US are Christians seeking insulation and more control. How many of them have any idea how (and are willing to) to teach "critical thinking," as you say, is probably a crap shoot. With low odds. Will they ask their children to challenge their faith with tough questions? With logical rejoinders? Or will they blithely ignore these things, delaying those kinds of more intellectual engagement until the kids reach college when the studies show that the kids from the strictest families have the greatest liberalizing reactionary responses?Better to teach your child how to think correctly or critically, which I believe homeschooling can afford.
I have taught many formerly home-schooled students in my career. A few were stellar thinkers: very inquisitive and probing. Most were behind on their reading and writing skills (particularly the writing) and many became shell-shocked by the complex themes of high-quality literature.
Re: What should be the goal of education?
Home schooling reasons are more focused on an individual child's learning type, to accomplish more academically, to provide extended learning opportunities, and to build child parent relationships as motivations, to name a few.
Atheistic parents also home school.
I tried confirming your "2/3" quote but was unable. If you can provide documentation, I would like to scope it out.
“He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8
Re: What should be the goal of education?
I can see the value for families who live in remote spots where it's simply too hard to get the kids to a public school. These days, given a satellite internet connection, the kids can have access to material beyond what their parents can provide at home.
Years ago, a friend who worked for social services and did family therapy, etc. on court referrals told me that in that rural area, homeschooling was sometimes used to conceal child abuse, including incest. She also worried about the ability of homeschooled kids to function outside their family settings.
Re: What should be the goal of education?
"To accomplish more academically"? "More" than what? More physics? More chemistry? More history? More essays? More calculus? More cursive? Or are we talking more morality and ethics and religious values?
I've actually not heard of this purpose before, of "accomplishing more." In my experience, the students come back into formal schooling for 9th grade often because they need more socialization with peers and the material is beyond the parental ability to teach it (and continue to hold sway over their kids).
Re: What should be the goal of education?
@Chip: yes, teachers are the front line of protection against child abuse and neglect. They are also the largest (in number) reporter of abuse and neglect to the state agencies.
Re: What should be the goal of education?
Yes, there are homeschool cooperatives which can provide more of what you listed. These are quite common. And yes, cursive, plus use fountain pens. A more classic educational experience is an option, https://welltrainedmind.com/a/classical-education/ I would have loved to have had this experience.
Yes, accomplishing more such as additional field trips, other classes not normally available in public education like what I mentioned above, more advanced art and music experiences. Additionally, homeschoolers can attend two-year college courses while in HS. A teen I know took an EMT course at 17 plus calculus and chemistry in 2022. The two sciences were free for taking the EMT course. She got to experience late night ambulance work, learned CPR/defibrillator use, hospital ER work and studying cadavers. She plans to be a military flight nurse. Her sibling is finishing nursing school this year and plans to be a nurse practioner. Both are very social, have loads of friends, have excellent work ethics, and are very independent. More than anything, they are others oriented.
I don't know who have been talking to, but brainwashing in religion is not the purpose of home-based education. It is not for remote families any more than urban families. It is not for convenience or sheltering. It is not anti-science, and yes, homeschoolers excel scholastically and graduate with advanced academic degrees.
What homeschool is, is an option. I am sounding less authoritarian that you. If you choose to raise your child void of any philosophical education, I won't complain.
“He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8
Re: What should be the goal of education?
My children are well out of college now. This isn't about my kids. Chuck, you sound like you're quoting from homeschooling promotional materials. Are you?
Re: What should be the goal of education?
Did I mention your children? No, I’m giving you first hand knowledge.
Re: What should be the goal of education?
Well, who is the "you" here, then? You are addressing someone. Were you talking to Chip?
Re: What should be the goal of education?
Second person singular to mean anyone.Well, who is the "you" here, then? You are addressing someone. Were you talking to Chip?
While I don't dream that I could change your mind/give some pause about homeschooling, your biased religious sentiments and opinions remind me of those against being "woke". You're stuck with your mindset even if history and other's experiences say otherwise.
Last edited by Chuck Naill; February 5th, 2023 at 06:32 AM.
“He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8
Re: What should be the goal of education?
[QUOTE=Chuck Naill;388852]Ok, but that is not how that line seems. Hard to imagine that it meant anyone beyond Chip or me, the two other people in the conversation.Second person singular to mean anyone.
I have lots of biases, Chuck. I don't deny them, nor even much regret most of them. The pernicious ones I work on. The less impactful ones I mostly ignore, as I do in others. This is a chat forum, where, for the most part, what we do is share our biased opinions. I am biased about pens, too. Which I discuss repeatedly in threads. I am definitely biased against homeschooling and never considered it for my own children: there is no way I could single-handedly have done as good a job as an entire team of professionals hired for the job. I couldn't be their doctor or lawyer or electrician, either.
One of my "biases" is against the parents who think that simply because they went to school once, too, that they know how best to be a teacher and can substitute themselves for the accumulated years of training and experience of a hired professional. Parents have the "right" to homeschool in each state as long as they follow certain guidelines. That is fine with me; I understand the "right." But I also believe that the right is exercised by a good number of underqualified persons to the detriment of the children. Is it "most"? I don't know. But in my 37 years of teaching experience dealing with students coming back into the school system after having been homeschooled, the academic deficiencies have been frequent enough that I am skeptical of the general practice. In the same way that a doctor might become skeptical of patients diagnosing and treating themselves by only consulting WebMD.
Re: What should be the goal of education?
Never had kids, but I've taught quite a few.
Worked as an Artist in Education for several western states and did residencies in public schools, including remote village schools in Alaska (via floatplane). Also taught natural science (hydrology, geology, geomorphology, aquatic biology) based on my years of fieldwork, and also outdoor skills (navigation, boating, river paddling, rock climbing, rescue, survival, camping, cooking, etc.) I worked with after-school college prep for high school students (some in off-reservation boarding schools), public school summer programs, and residential stuff such as the Teton Science School, where I taught both natural science and writing.
I think it's vital for the young to learn some things in groups, both to acquire the basics of getting along with others, and to hear what other students have to say about the subjects (and themselves). My ideal program would limit the time spent sitting in a classroom and concentrate on non-contact sports and field trips, mostly close to home in local parks, museums, libraries, even churches, synagogues, and mosques. Also businesses, factories, military bases, etc.
Given my father's extreme right-wing views, I got enough indoctrination without full days of propaganda in the guise of education. It took me years to shed that narrow, paranoid way of thinking. I had teachers who were obviously traditional and conservative and others who were liberal, which forced me to think critically about what I was being taught. Home schooling would have been disastrous.
Last edited by Chip; February 5th, 2023 at 10:45 PM.
Re: What should be the goal of education?
[QUOTE=TSherbs;388865]Ok, but that is not how that line seems. Hard to imagine that it meant anyone beyond Chip or me, the two other people in the conversation.Second person singular to mean anyone.
I have lots of biases, Chuck. I don't deny them, nor even much regret most of them. The pernicious ones I work on. The less impactful ones I mostly ignore, as I do in others. This is a chat forum, where, for the most part, what we do is share our biased opinions. I am biased about pens, too. Which I discuss repeatedly in threads. I am definitely biased against homeschooling and never considered it for my own children: there is no way I could single-handedly have done as good a job as an entire team of professionals hired for the job. I couldn't be their doctor or lawyer or electrician, either.
One of my "biases" is against the parents who think that simply because they went to school once, too, that they know how best to be a teacher and can substitute themselves for the accumulated years of training and experience of a hired professional. Parents have the "right" to homeschool in each state as long as they follow certain guidelines. That is fine with me; I understand the "right." But I also believe that the right is exercised by a good number of underqualified persons to the detriment of the children. Is it "most"? I don't know. But in my 37 years of teaching experience dealing with students coming back into the school system after having been homeschooled, the academic deficiencies have been frequent enough that I am skeptical of the general practice. In the same way that a doctor might become skeptical of patients diagnosing and treating themselves by only consulting WebMD.
Nothing wrong with being skeptical, concerned, or relating your few experiences here for consideration.
What is wrong with your view is casting "ALL" into some preconceived bias against religion or academic success. Since public or private systems could be as easily critiqued, your postings here are at best an unsubstantiated rant. I had hoped better of you.
At least you have children and the responsibility to educate as you see fit. In a non-totalitarian society, those freedoms will continue.
“He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8
Re: What should be the goal of education?
?? Do I have to have documents of my 37 years of teaching experience for this conversation? And which part was a "rant"? All I said was that my experience has made me "skeptical." That's hardly a "rant."
And the "all" part was from the view of an athiest. Definitionally, an athiest does see "all" references to the existence of gods as incorrect and misguided. There is no getting around that. In the same way that believers see "all" athiests as incorrect in their denials of the existence of god. That is not a "rant" either to acknowledge this.
Re: What should be the goal of education?
You really never attempted an objective discussion about homeschooling. There is nothing else I can add regarding the opportunities and benefits of this educational option. Think as you wish, Ted.
I've come to an idea to perhaps explain why a Christian might consider homeschooling. It is not to insulate, but to provide knowledge that will not or cannot come from modern secular thought. Since most Americans will be familiar with the Ten Commandments, I will use them to explain my point. If we take commandments 2-10 we see how to treat others. This is why Jesus said the law and the prophets are summed up with loving God and treating others as you would want to be treated.
For example, telling the truth is based on the knowledge that doing so will produce goodness in a community. Not coveting your neighbor's belongings results in goodness, stability, contentment, and joy. This is not something you will hear in secular conversations because there is no basis for truth. As Pontius Pilot replied to Jesus, "what is truth". We live in a time when truth is whatever you think it is. Goodness, beauty, love, or virtues are not something you will learn in a public school because there is no foundation from which to draw. As the scriptures say, "everyman did what was right in his own eyes". I've heard a people say they have their own truth. How practical for living is millions of people living by their truth?
People who are disciples of Jesus want to walk in a manner as he walked. To live their lives as Jesus would live if he were them. They see this as experiential knowledge, which it is, and worth imparting this knowledge to their children. This stems not from fear of the world or secular thought. It is to equip their children with the virtues which will allow them to live a good life, knowing beauty, healthy love, along with joy. This knowledge actually makes children stronger, not insulated. And this is certainly not authoritarian. Jesus is not an authoritarian.
Last edited by Chuck Naill; February 6th, 2023 at 07:45 AM.
“He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8
Re: What should be the goal of education?
Yeah, I keep saying that. I don't trust it, from my experience. And like I said, it's a right that families have. I just wish that more of them would do it better---or give their kids back to the professionals at schools.
In a side note, you keep mentioning Christians and Jesus. It is not "objective" to fall back on religion, either. Especially not when you mention only one of the many faiths practiced in the US, many of which, including Christianity, that try to set up schools or homeschooling networks, to instruct their children in the precepts of their faith. Again, for athiests, or for any other people of faith other than the one in question, this is indoctrination in falsehoods. That, by the way, is an objective statement: each of the monotheistic faiths in their core teachings considers the others to be in error, if not heretical. Ahtiests believe that they ALL are (that is another objective statement).
Commandments 1-4 are all specific to Judaism and Christianity. They refer to the Judeo-Christian god. # 5-10 are common to nearly every culture on the planet and require no church or separate school or home-schooling to teach them: all schools teach these common values. (#10 perhaps the least, but this is because all of American advertising is built on the idea that we should want that the other people in the ads have).
As I said, homeschooling, within limits, is an Americn right. I just wish that they did it better. By the time a young person is about 16 (some say much earlier), their patterns of adult thinking, the limits of their adult intellectual trajectories, have pretty much been set (that's a generalization, I know--but policy is built upon general patterns). It's a shame, but many potential very sharp minds are dulled in the backwaters of American intellecual lassitude and ignorance.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks