What is Wrong in the (Fountain Pen) World

[TSherbs]

I try not to read comments on YouTube, they are often full of awful stuff that have little to do with the video and more to do with someone wanting attention. Ever go to a popular music video? Yikes. I've noticed sometimes the comments dont load until I scroll to them, so I don't scroll.
The fountain pen videos are actually more likely to be civilized in my opinion so it's sad to hear this happens even there. Sure, he can turn off comments, but I see new-to-fountain-pen people asking this youtuber questions in his videos and he answers them nicely, he won't be able to help them anymore if he turned off the ability to do that.
I feel that just because someone is online showing his face in a video, you don't REALLY know them. Thinking they are something, making judgements over whether you like this person you've actually never met, getting angry over what they are doing that you don't like, that's all irrational thinking.
I feel like people online - sometimes this distance, this screen and wires separating us but also connecting us, it causes this bubble - you're anonymous, you can do what you want, say what you want. You feel unhappy about something, you can tear down whomever you'd like. In some people it brings out the worst in their natures.

Good points, but there are other venues, including his own website, and on fountain pen forums, where this conversation could take place in a healthier (and more appropriately moderated) environment. Youtube is notorious for its spurious incivility.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

While I don't condone abusive behaviour, I also found Brown's response to be somewhat whining. For my part I find his videos only informative at best, and then only if one is interested in mainly very expensive pens. Doing a few outlier cheapies does not mean the videos are aimed at the average user. That Brown attempts to create 'interesting, engaging, entertaining... ' content is laudable, but does not mean that he has necessarily achieved this.

Would you care to explain why it's "whining"? The guy was being bullied. That's got nothing to do with the production value of his videos.

Also, you seem to think he's somehow done you wrong by failing to provide the kinds of reviews that you'd like to see. He reviews the pens that he wishes to review. You'd like him to review some other pen(s)? Fine. Send him the pen(s), and I'm sure he'll review it (them). You don't want to pay? Then why exactly are you complaining?

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I did not once say that he has "done me wrong". Neither am I complaining. That Brown reviews mostly more expensive pens is not an opinion, it is a simple check-able fact. Highlighting this fact is not a complaint, merely a statement of that fact. So, perhaps you can see more clearly now how easy it is to only misinterpret what someone else is saying?

I also didn't say I would like him to review other pens - that is you misinterpreting again. Nor did I say I didn't want to pay (for what exactly is not at all clear, but there it is). Again, you make assumptions based on misreading.

This is exactly why I worded my other post the way it was. To provoke this kind of reaction in order to provide an illustrative example. And based on your response I am seriously wondering if you simply picked out a few self-fulfilling keywords and jumped straight to your preferred conclusion.


I would suggest that you re-read what was in the blog and also what I wrote. You will note that I did not condone abusive behaviour (that's the bullying part), but that comments about production values may have something in them. Indeed someone did make comments on the videos about the way the presentation is created. I agree that the wording was not the most sensitive, and really quite personal. Looking beyond that, does the commentator have a point? Possibly, and that's what I was saying.

Make no mistake my post was deliberate*. How can anyone have a reasonable conversation and discuss issues if other parties are always going strive to see offence where perhaps none is intended?

As for the comment about whining, well, yes I do actually think Brown comes across as a bit precious at times. If anyone wishes to put their work up for public scrutiny and likely criticism then they really need to cultivate the necessary skills to deal with abusive comments as well as constructive criticism and praise too. It's not a perfect world, everybody thinks a little differently, expresses themselves a little differently, have differing agendas and so on. To expect anything else is at best idealistic, but in general is simply naive.


There are reasons why I prefer some reviewers to others. Some of those reasons are technical, and some are aesthetic. None of them are incorrect. If you do not agree with my opinion, that does not make my opinion invalid or even wrong.




*Based on the tone of your response to me, I doubt very much you will believe this, even though it is true. If you feel I have misinterpreted your post then perhaps you should turn that mirror on yourself too.

[Deb]

I note that one or two people have been critical of Steve Brown's style of reviewing and one of Stef's, as if that had anything to do with what is going on. It doesn't. They are not bringing the abuse upon themselves. They are victims of trolls who have found someone to bait and torment. In most cases, the abusers wouldn't know a fountain pen if it lept up and bit them. Even in the cases where the commenter gives the impression he might know what a fountain pen is, the criticism is not constructive but deliberately personal and abusive. If you doubt what I describe is universal, try Facebook, Twitter or USENET. You will find exactly the same thing going on all over the Internet. This is not about fountain pens or fountain pen people. It's about trolls.

These reviewers are fellow fountain pen lovers. Regardless of whether you enjoy their work, they deserve our support.

[fountainpagan]

What if he only reviews expensive pens? What if he wanted to review only how lamb chops taste? Are people obliged to watch his videos? No! Does he oblige them to watch any of his reviews? No!

What is the purpose of such agressive and despicable comments, if it is not to romp, and liberate the frustations of those publishing such comments, cowardly shielded by a screen?
I don't know this person, I don't know how much he is paid for doing his review (I didn't even know he was - good for him, clever guy), but I do know several things:

- No one obliges me to watch his videos;

- No one can make me believe all he says;

- If I am not happy with the content of one or more reviews I have several options:
a) to tell him, constructively;
b) to pass to another review;
c) to pass, and never watch his reviews again.

There is no need to be violent and confrontational.
The attacks this person has been confronted to are sordid, violent, and despicable.

Whining?? Pfffff!

[Miss Fountain Pen]

Empty_of_Clouds, I am misreading nothing. Your comments about the kinds of pens that SBRE Brown reviews, etc., have precisely nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Why are you bringing it up? Oh, sorry, you explained why: because you're trying to bait people. Very constructive indeed.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I'm not trying to bait people for the sake of it. I was actually trying to make a serious point.


I am quoting the following in full because it is illustrative of this point.

I note that one or two people have been critical of Steve Brown's style of reviewing and one of Stef's, as if that had anything to do with what is going on. It doesn't. They are not bringing the abuse upon themselves. They are victims of trolls who have found someone to bait and torment. In most cases, the abusers wouldn't know a fountain pen if it lept up and bit them. Even in the cases where the commenter gives the impression he might know what a fountain pen is, the criticism is not constructive but deliberately personal and abusive. If you doubt what I describe is universal, try Facebook, Twitter or USENET. You will find exactly the same thing going on all over the Internet. This is not about fountain pens or fountain pen people. It's about trolls.

These reviewers are fellow fountain pen lovers. Regardless of whether you enjoy their work, they deserve our support.

Yes, I agree, and have stated three times now that abuse is not good. I guess this is being overlooked as an inconvenience. In the quote above are two contrary positions: a.) that people do not invite this kind of thing, and b.) that it's commonly found all over the internet.

Putting anything in the public domain runs the risk of everything from high praise to downright unpleasant personal attacks. I don't like the fact that it is like this - so please try not to paint me as such - but it is the way it is. One must learn to deal with it somehow.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

Yes, I agree, and have stated three times now that abuse is not good. I guess this is being overlooked as an inconvenience. In the quote above are two contrary positions: a.) that people do not invite this kind of thing, and b.) that it's commonly found all over the internet.

I am, indeed, ignoring it, and I'll tell you why: because in the context of your entire post, it simply doesn't sound credible. You know, "I'm not racist, but..." That type of thing. You may not exactly be condoning the abuse, but you certainly don't seem to think it's a big deal.

And the two propositions that you cite are not contradictory at all. The point is that the abuse is not directed at people because their videos, etc. are deficient. In fact, the quality of the videos has nothing to do with whether or not a person will be subject to this sort of abuse.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I give up. I have nothing to hide, and no particular agenda here. I was merely discussing the possible ways that online interactions may be viewed, understood or responded to. Whether you think I sound credible is irrelevant. I've told you why I wrote what I wrote. If you cannot find the courtesy to take me at my word (I am the author after all) then we have nothing more to say to each other.

This is how I see the bare bones of the situation: abuse is rife on the internet - anonymity has ensured this. If anyone thinks they will go unnoticed by the abusers, they are seriously deluding themselves. Complaining about abuse on the the internet may be cathartic, but in general that is all it is.

I am trying to be as objective as possible here. I know it's not very palatable, but if you have a better solution to this then please say so.


For clarity: I am in no way suggesting that ANY reviewer deserves any kind of gratuitous abuse. I have never said that, and I am stating it clearly here again. Please do not insult me by suggesting you know my motives better than I do.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

I give up. I have nothing to hide, and no particular agenda here. I was merely discussing the possible ways that online interactions may be viewed, understood or responded to. Whether you think I sound credible is irrelevant. I've told you why I wrote what I wrote. If you cannot find the courtesy to take me at my word (I am the author after all) then we have nothing more to say to each other.

This is how I see the bare bones of the situation: abuse is rife on the internet - anonymity has ensured this. If anyone thinks they will go unnoticed by the abusers, they are seriously deluding themselves. Complaining about abuse on the the internet may be cathartic, but in general that is all it is.

I am trying to be as objective as possible here. I know it's not very palatable, but if you have a better solution to this then please say so.


For clarity: I am in no way suggesting that ANY reviewer deserves any kind of gratuitous abuse. I have never said that, and I am stating it clearly here again. Please do not insult me by suggesting you know my motives better than I do.

Bob: Mary is fat, stupid, and ugly!

Susie: Bob, how dare you insult people like that?! Stop immediately!

Jack: Well, well, well... Bob could have expressed himself better, but he's right that Mary would do well to lose a few pounds. It's for her own good. She's putting herself at risk of heart disease and diabetes.

Susie: Jack, don't you see that Bob is simply being abusive? Mary's weight has nothing to do with it, and this is certainly not the time for you to bring this sort of thing up. You should stand up for the person who is being subjected to abuse.

Jack: I said that Bob shouldn't have used that language. But the fact of the matter is that Mary would benefit from losing a few pounds. Besides, it is a well known fact that overweight people expose themselves to abuse when they appear in public. I'm not saying this is how it should be, but it is what it is, and they just need to deal with it. Anyway, I believe I have constructively contributed to this conversation. If you refuse to see it, then we don't have anything more to say to each other.

[TSherbs]

... One must learn to deal with it somehow.

Options:

1) don't post videos

2) post them but de-select the comments option

3) post them, allow comments, and find a way not to take malevolent postings personally

4) post them, allow comments, not find a way to do #3, and then suffer hurt

5) post them, allow comments, periodically do well with approach #3, and also periodically slide into the suffering of #4. This is probably the most common long term situation for those who post their own material, since it is very challenging to remain immune to malevolence.


I recommend #2, and this has been my approach with the few videos I have ever uploaded to youtube, especially any that included me, my friends, my family.

[stub]

more shits & giggles:

https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpen...rld_sbrebrown/

[xhomerx10]

He actually covered that aspect in his blog. He said if it were as simple as a "You suck" comment, it would be easy to ignore but it often goes far beyond that and is difficult for him to ignore. You should read it.

[Paddrino]

I will agree with him wholeheartedly with his comments on Reddit. That fountain pen sub is filled with absolute garbage at times. The vast majority of comments on there are people who have never used much less owned any of the pens they make comments about, and people who genuinely try to help are typically down voted just out of spite from people who don't agree with the opinions made. I saw one particular person go on a very strange personal life rant on gourmet pens once that was completely uncalled for and total trash.

There are some reviewers I like and others I don't care for as much (even some that are really popular) I just simply stop following them on that particular medium. In fact there was a reviewer that once posted a picture on Instagram that I felt was immature and childish (they wrote something along the lines of 'shut the fuck up' which they wrote with a fountain pen. I just don't care for that garbage.), but I have never once put anyone down or even made a comment about what I found stupid. I simply go away

I've done you tube video reviews before. People who have never done it have absolutely no idea how time consuming it is, and when you work for hours on something and you get a comment like 'your face looks like shit' then you can see why people are genuinely discouraged to do any more for that forum or community.

I certainly relate to Dr. Brown. Perhaps him calling attention to it is his attempt at trying to let people know that what they are doing is genuinely hurtful. I completely agree with him, but unfortunately is one of those things you have to deal with in general on the Internet. It certainly isn't 'right' or even 'fair', but if people took the time to realize that there are actual humans on the other side of pixels, the Internet may be a better place in general.

[jar]

I saw one particular person go on a very strange personal life rant on gourmet pens once that was completely uncalled for and total trash.

What is a gourmet pen?

[Marsilius]

Can anyone summarize the issue for those of us who don't watch videos?

Maybe someone pointed this out already, but it is a written blog post this time, so not a video.
Best,
Mars

[Kaputnik]

I saw one particular person go on a very strange personal life rant on gourmet pens once that was completely uncalled for and total trash.

What is a gourmet pen?

This, apparently, although it's not the sort of pen we usually discuss here.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

I saw one particular person go on a very strange personal life rant on gourmet pens once that was completely uncalled for and total trash.

What is a gourmet pen?

Gourmet pens is Azizah Asgarali's blog. Azizah is Stephen Brown's wife.

[jar]

Can anyone summarize the issue for those of us who don't watch videos?

Maybe someone pointed this out already, but it is a written blog post this time, so not a video.
Best,
Mars

Thanks, if they had pointed that out I missed it.

So I did go and read the message and I am sorry that he lets such folk upset him but the behavior is unfortunately very common at the kiddy table and pre-school playground. As soon as you allow the kiddies to wander freely without adult supervision that behavior shows up everywhere. Unfortunately only the adults who are responsible for those kiddies can really do much to change their behavior to a point when they can be welcomed in polite company.

[dneal]

I read the comments, as posted in the blog. I think asserting that "this person has a serious personal grudge" is a little bit of an exaggeration.

The growing lack of civility in society is certainly disappointing. Also disappointing is the growing "sensitivity" to all things "offensive". The level of self-importance and lack of confidence it takes to be offended by trivial shit never ceases to amaze me. Emory university is all up in arms because somebody wrote "Trump 2016", in chalk, on a sidewalk. In other news, a You Tube contributor is upset at a disparaging comment. This is grade-school level of offensiveness and outrage.

There's more important stuff in life to worry about.