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Thread: The Islam Thread

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    Default The Islam Thread

    The 2nd Amendment thread is getting a little long in the tooth, and bogged down with the issue of Islam.

    I thought Scrawler's post was particularly insightful (or inciteful, if you like ), and the topic could do with its own thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawler View Post
    It is rather curious how this thread has deteriorated into the usual ignorance on both sides of the Islam issue. The best way to understand Islam is to go and live in an Islamic society, rather than listen to the antagonists and appeasers. Go see what kind of societies Islam creates. The truth of something is in what it does, not in what it says about itself. I have lived in a couple and my wife is from an Islamic country. It is quite wrong to say, as was stated above, that there are two types of Muslim. There are actually 73 different sects, derived broadly from two major divisions. All of the trouble, murders and mayhem that you are seeing is from one sect and its subdivisions only. Confusion about what Islam is, comes largely from the apparent dichotomy between the manifest violence of one group of sects and the peaceful, friendly ways of members of other sects. Indeed the more violent sects claim the others are "apostate" and victimize them too. Thus leading to the confusion caused when it appears that Muslims kill other Muslims, despite the teachings. I am going shortly to have coffee with a lady who identifies as a Muslim. She is a kind, thoughtful and generous person. If you were to judge Islam by her and her ethnic group, you might form a good opinion of Muslims in general. If on the other hand you have only been exposed to one of the strict observance sects, you would likely form a different opinion. In the same way many people identify as Christian but are very different. There is almost no relationship, beyond the name of the principal, between say a nominal Anglican and a foaming at the mouth American Evangelist. Many Muslims are victims of Islam and would quite happily just be another person, just like you or me, but for the non-acceptance that forces them into communities, where the strictures of the religion can be enforced on them by the more recent wave of migrants. There are many who identify as Muslim, but are not accepted as "real Muslims" by others, but cannot drop the label.
    I tend to agree with this point of view. I have many muslim friends, from members of the Turkish Army to Afghan interpreters who now reside in the U.S. I also know first hand the evil of fundamentalist Islam.

    Labeling the whole of Islam as evil is pointless, as is denying the Islamic influence on terrorism. At the end of the day, we're talking about totalitarian ideology - and that's not confined to Islam. Religion just tends to be a convenient justification, whether it's the Spanish Inquisition or Jihadism.

    “Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion—several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn’t straight.” Mark Twain

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The 2nd Amendment thread is getting a little long in the tooth, and bogged down with the issue of Islam.

    I thought Scrawler's post was particularly insightful (or inciteful, if you like ), and the topic could do with its own thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawler View Post
    It is rather curious how this thread has deteriorated into the usual ignorance on both sides of the Islam issue. The best way to understand Islam is to go and live in an Islamic society, rather than listen to the antagonists and appeasers. Go see what kind of societies Islam creates. The truth of something is in what it does, not in what it says about itself. I have lived in a couple and my wife is from an Islamic country. It is quite wrong to say, as was stated above, that there are two types of Muslim. There are actually 73 different sects, derived broadly from two major divisions. All of the trouble, murders and mayhem that you are seeing is from one sect and its subdivisions only. Confusion about what Islam is, comes largely from the apparent dichotomy between the manifest violence of one group of sects and the peaceful, friendly ways of members of other sects. Indeed the more violent sects claim the others are "apostate" and victimize them too. Thus leading to the confusion caused when it appears that Muslims kill other Muslims, despite the teachings. I am going shortly to have coffee with a lady who identifies as a Muslim. She is a kind, thoughtful and generous person. If you were to judge Islam by her and her ethnic group, you might form a good opinion of Muslims in general. If on the other hand you have only been exposed to one of the strict observance sects, you would likely form a different opinion. In the same way many people identify as Christian but are very different. There is almost no relationship, beyond the name of the principal, between say a nominal Anglican and a foaming at the mouth American Evangelist. Many Muslims are victims of Islam and would quite happily just be another person, just like you or me, but for the non-acceptance that forces them into communities, where the strictures of the religion can be enforced on them by the more recent wave of migrants. There are many who identify as Muslim, but are not accepted as "real Muslims" by others, but cannot drop the label.
    I tend to agree with this point of view. I have many muslim friends, from members of the Turkish Army to Afghan interpreters who now reside in the U.S. I also know first hand the evil of fundamentalist Islam.

    Labeling the whole of Islam as evil is pointless, as is denying the Islamic influence on terrorism. At the end of the day, we're talking about totalitarian ideology - and that's not confined to Islam. Religion just tends to be a convenient justification, whether it's the Spanish Inquisition or Jihadism.

    “Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion—several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn’t straight.” Mark Twain
    Like I mentioned in that other thread...I have yet to see any of these "Muslims victims" protesting or speaking out against all the others who are giving them such a bad name.

    "Labeling the whole of Islam as evil is pointless."
    If someone gave you a bowl of raisin brand cereal and told you that one of the raisins might be poisoned and could kill you, would you eat the cereal anyway or toss the entire thing into the garbage?

    Just a thought.

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    Rasin Bran cereal - False analogy. Even if it weren't, it only illustrates a point. It doesn't prove one.

    But let's assume for a moment that Islam is at its heart a totalitarian death cult. Now what? Hunt 'em all down and kill 'em? Nuke 'em all? We both know that's not going to happen, so it's pointless. Most importantly though, it doesn't properly identify the enemy. It's hard to know who to fight if you haven't done that critical first step.

    Saudia Arabia has been propagating its radical interpretation of Islam worldwide for around 50 years. Steven Schwartz describes this well in his book "The Two Faces of Islam". It has done this for a few reasons, one being a geopolitical struggle with Iran (see: Vali Nasr The Shia Revival). We're all now reaping what they've sown.

    The Middle East is now in another transition, leaving the last vestiges of Pan-Arabism. A "return" to "Islam" is a promised ideology that will solve all the muslim world's ills, much like Socialism/Communism was (and still is) to other regions of the world. It's an idea of a utopia that "true believers" will try to force down people's throat. It's only rejected when people get a taste of that "utopia". We see 2nd generation muslims from Europe and the U.S. flocking to Syria, and Syrians fleeing.

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    This seems like a really stupid idea for a topic.....

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    Seems strange to me that in today's world there are so many that dislike Christianity and find every other culture better than their own. Romanticizing Islamic culture is becoming the vogue it seems.

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    MTurbo, you obviously get all of your news from US sources. The US news media only covers the sensationalism, the horror and scandal that attracts readers. It won't cover anything peaceful, except something like a dog being rescued from cruel treatment.

    Btw, Turkey is a Muslim nation that had a secular government for a very long period of time. It was only recently that things changed, but even though leadership has a religious agenda, policies are still grounded in a secular foundation. Aside from the Kurds issue, it has been a generally peaceful nation until more recent terrorist incursions.

    While I don't know precise statistics, I can safely say that a majority of Muslims leave peacefully. But a large number of Americans won't believe that, because when they hear about terrorists there is always a Muslim or Islamic association drawn. Polls have been taken. It's shocking how many people think Muslims are inherently violent or that Islam is intent on devouring the Western world. People have such short memories. Roll back to the times before the 1980's and you'll see there were very few terrorist incidents tied to Islam. It wasn't until Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan nations were embroiled with war that militants began to coalesce and form their terrorist organizations with ties to Islam. And we can thank both Russia and America for that. Those b@stards tried to control and manipulate a region for their own aims, because of fossil fuel dependencies. Well, all that nicely backfired. Those two nations are complicit to starting this whole mess.

    What this all comes down to is that most Muslims are people just like anyone else, wanting to live peacefully and prosper. We human beings have to become better educated about psychology. Because the whole "witch hunt" syndrome seems to keep coming up anytime something goes wrong. Find the scapegoat and eviscerate it mercilessly. Like those poor girls in Salem accused of being witches.

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    The truth is not difficult to find. All you have to do is to read the original history of Islam written by the early historians, read the Hadith for historical information, and read the Quran. After you do that, you will get to know the true Islam. This is the pure Islam as taught by the Wahhabis and practiced by the Taliban. After that, when you read the books written by the modern day "apologists" you will see that they are concealing the truth.

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    What original history of Islam by what historian? I would recommend Phillip Hitti's book "History of the Arabs". Anyway - The original history of Christianity (and Judaism!) bears little resemblance to what we see today. Leviticus and Deuteronomy could easily be justified for all sorts of horrible things. Stoning originates with Judaism, in fact. Christianity is rife with a history of killing heretics, in particularly gruesome ways. Should that be the basis of judgement to the whole of Christianity, or Judaism, today? I think not.

    So why isn't this the case for Islam as well? The Ottoman caliphate gave sanctuary to Spanish jews when they were being forced to convert under penalty of death, because Islam considers Jews and Christians "al kitab", or "People of the Book". Classically, they're a protected class who pay a different tax rate because there is no compulsory military service for them.

    An overwhelming portion of the Islamic world is illiterate, and only know what is taught to them by Mullahs/Imams. A great majority of those mullahs are schooled in Islam by Saudi "scholars" (again, pay attention to who is funding madrassas and mosques worldwide).

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    All organised religions are inherently wrong, belief cannot be taught but only learned by experience; it is wrong to expect others to believe the same as oneself simply because one 'believes' one is 'right'.

    Religion is social-psychological terrorism...
    and Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam et al are all guilty.

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    What original history of Islam by what historian? I would recommend Phillip Hitti's book "History of the Arabs". Anyway - The original history of Christianity (and Judaism!) bears little resemblance to what we see today. Leviticus and Deuteronomy could easily be justified for all sorts of horrible things. Stoning originates with Judaism, in fact. Christianity is rife with a history of killing heretics, in particularly gruesome ways. Should that be the basis of judgement to the whole of Christianity, or Judaism, today? I think not.

    So why isn't this the case for Islam as well? The Ottoman caliphate gave sanctuary to Spanish jews when they were being forced to convert under penalty of death, because Islam considers Jews and Christians "al kitab", or "People of the Book". Classically, they're a protected class who pay a different tax rate because there is no compulsory military service for them.
    The same Ottoman caliphate considered children of conquered Christian "People of the Book" (giaour infidels) taxable. As in, boys to the janissaries, girls to the harems.

    So long as we debase the truth to support a multiculturalist narrative of a peaceful Islam, our safety is compromised.
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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The Ottoman caliphate gave sanctuary to Spanish jews when they were being forced to convert under penalty of death, because Islam considers Jews and Christians "al kitab", or "People of the Book". .
    Remind me again - what's the penalty for leaving Islam, both then and now?

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    Well eventhough i dont have strong religious roots and beliefs, this thread really annoys me...

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    "The very ink with which all history is written is merely fluid prejudice".
    - Mark Twain -

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by EmreMusovi View Post
    Well eventhough i dont have strong religious roots and beliefs, this thread really annoys me...

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    Most of the sheep in the world would be bothered with this thread. Continue hand wringing...

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    Speaking as a Christian, Islam is certainly far less dangerous than Christianity and it's history certainly far more peaceful than Christianity.

    The biggest difference is that Islam is far less capable of exporting violence than say, the US. Muslims make up about 1% of the US citizens but so far there is absolutely no evidence that they are anymore prone to violence than any other US demographic group.

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MTurbo View Post
    The truth is not difficult to find. All you have to do is to read the original history of Islam written by the early historians, read the Hadith for historical information, and read the Quran. After you do that, you will get to know the true Islam. This is the pure Islam as taught by the Wahhabis and practiced by the Taliban. After that, when you read the books written by the modern day "apologists" you will see that they are concealing the truth.
    Very interesting..

    Tell me, are you yourself a Muslim? How many Muslims do you know personally?

    It's very puzzling to find that the wahabi and taliban version of Islam (if you could call it that), is being portrayed here as the "true" and the "pure" Islam, by folks who haven't necessarily established their credibility on the subject.

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    I'm surprised to see so many defending the same people that just finished killing so many men,women and children with the assault truck. Why in Gods name would you continue doing that!?

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MTurbo View Post
    I'm surprised to see so many defending the same people that just finished killing so many men,women and children with the assault truck. Why in Gods name would you continue doing that!?
    Who is doing that?

    Sorry but not condemning a whole religious population does not defend those members of that population that commit crimes. Remember far more Christians in the US kill folk than Muslims yet no one says all Christians should be condemned. In addition it was an assault using a truck. There is no such thing as an assault truck nor do I condemn all trucks just because a criminal used one to kill people.
    Last edited by jar; July 18th, 2016 at 06:18 AM. Reason: appalin spallin is ----> it

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Who is doing that?

    Sorry but not condemning a whole religious population does not defend those members of that population that commit crimes. Remember far more Christians in the US kill folk than Muslims yet no one says all Christians should be condemned. In addition is was an assault using a truck. There is no such thing as an assault truck nor do I condemn all trucks just because a criminal used one to kill people.
    Exactly. And this is the problem... the same issue that occurred with the Japanese interment camps during WWII. People who were Americans, either immigrated to the US as children and naturalized or were born here, were rounded up in those camps and held under terrible conditions... meanwhile, many legalized citizens of Japanese descent suffered financial loss, as their domiciles were left unattended and bills unpaid allowing for seizure. And to what end? Maybe 0.01% of that population might have been sympathetic enough to Japan for inspiration to do something about it. Incarcerating an entire population for that fractional percent is just PREPOSTEROUS. And yet, this same reasoning is being promoted by a certain presidential candidate. It's the "conspiracy syndrome." It's a deadly mindset, promoting fear and hate mongering with rash erroneous conclusions.

    I've done further research that has opened my mind further... to see beyond the clouded rhetoric swirling around the USA these days. The simple PLAIN FACT is that a vast majority of Muslims living in Western nations are doing so because they do not subscribe to the extremist beliefs of their originating countries. That's why they left. They do not embrace Sharia law, nor the barbaric punishments and inhumane treatments prescribed. It's just like Christianity that overlooks the extremist content of the Bible, where passages can be found where stoning, slave ownership, and second class treatment of women is condoned. These Muslims are peaceful people... and yet, they suffer this distorted perception due to the radical extremists. Think of it in reverse. If there were Christian extremists who were blowing up mosques and Muslims, what would normal Christians do about it? Well, what could they do, other than reporting very suspicious activity... but beyond that, what? Who would go ahead and be publicly vocal against it, because of fearing retribution from those extremists? We don't live under those conditions, but imagine if you did... MOST Americans revealing an underlying hatred of all Muslims are clueless ignoramuses that are too cowardly to face the truth.

    I get it. The whole "conspiracy fear" is an easy trap to fall into. But God damn it, if you take a sensible approach you can cut through that and see reality for what it is. It's just appalling to me how many educated and experienced people can be SUCKED INTO CONSPIRACY PEDDLING. What conspiracy? The one about all Muslims intent on dominating the world, seeping their way into all of our Western societies and bringing about the same inhumane treatments from the countries they immigrated from. There is no conspiracy. Most people on Earth just want to live in peace, prosper as best they can, and worship their own religion. Isn't that what the USA was founded upon?
    Last edited by myu; July 17th, 2016 at 12:38 PM.

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    Default Re: The Islam Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MTurbo View Post
    I'm surprised to see so many defending the same people that just finished killing so many men,women and children with the assault truck. Why in Gods name would you continue doing that!?
    Nobodies defending those involved in such acts. People are defending those with no involvement in such acts.

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