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Thread: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fiction?

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    Cool How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fiction?

    I had this crazy dream, where the first presidential debate took place between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. It was a huge media sensation, because Hillary kept dodging Donald, stating it would be a waste of time -- nothing productive would come of it due to Donald's rash behavior.

    Well, she finally acquiesced and a debate was scheduled.

    [NOTE: THIS IS FICTION!] It was a dream, so there's no transcript. I used a little creativity in reconstructing what I can recall.

    SCENE: First presidential debate of 2016. Donald Trump walks in from the right wing (of course) and Hillary from the other side. Both are smiling, waving to the audience, and nodding to the moderators. First moderator addresses Donald Trump and he is given the go for his opening speech.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    TRUMP: Thank you, very much. Thank you. Hillary, I am so glad to see you here. Quite frankly, I didn't think you would come under the circumstances. [pause]

    CLINTON: I see. And so I'm supposed to ask what are the circumstances?

    TRUMP: Well, it would be the honest thing to do, if you can do it. We all know you have a little problem with honesty, and I'm toning it way down, WAY down. *laughs* But no matter, I'm very grateful you are actually here. Do you know why? I'll tell you why, Mrs. Lying, Cheating, Criminal Hillary Clinton. You have broken laws, laws that have punitive consequences, and corrupt individuals in the US government have been remiss in exercising proper legal action. I am a very responsible man, and where I see irresponsibility within my grasp, I take the charge to correct it. And therefore, I'm exercising my due right as a US citizen to put you under citizen's arrest.

    MODERATOR: Mr. Trump, this is completely inappropriate and uncalled for. You will cease--

    TRUMP: No, I'm not ceasing anything.

    [Two very large men now appear on stage in what appear to be some kind of police-like uniforms and approach Hillary. At this moment, Hillary looks like a deer caught in headlights. Frozen with eyes open wide.]

    TRUMP: Hillary Rodham Clinton, you stand accused of perjury and criminal acts against the United States Government--

    MODERATOR: Mr. Trump!

    CLINTON: [Hillary shakes her head, manages to get some words out.] This is despicable!

    TRUMP: AND--and I'm exercising my right to a citizen's arrest. Hillary Rodham Clinton, you are to be taken into custody until such time as a hearing may be granted for your criminal case. I have that right. I HAVE THAT RIGHT.

    CLINTON: You have NO authority to undertake this completely illegal and unauthorized action. It's tantamount to kidnapping!

    MODERATOR: Mr. Trump, if you do not back off we are calling in the police!

    TRUMP: No need -- they are here. MY police! It's over. Hillary Clinton's permission to continue her scandalous and criminal behavior ends here and now. I'm going to be your next president -- there is no other candidate. Hillary is under arrest. Take her away!

    [The two burly men step forward and grasp a struggling Hillary by the upper arms.]

    CLINTON: Unhand me! You have NO AUTHORITY! SOMEBODY HELP ME!! [the men start dragging her, kicking and screaming, off the stage]

    MODERATOR: I'm calling in the police [dialing 911 on his cellphone]. Mr. Trump you'll be under arrest if you don't stop this immediately!

    TRUMP: You want to be complicit in allowing Hillary Clinton, a criminal, to roam freely about the public? Be my guest. We can arrest you as well!

    [The whole scene quickly descends into tremendous chaos. Audience members supportive of Trump jump in to assist his guards with restraining Hillary. One of them snatches away the phone of the moderator before he can finish making the call.]

    TRUMP: *tap, tap* [on the microphone] So. Sorry for that folks, but this was necessary. Nobody else was taking necessary action. I did. I'm a man of action, and you'll see more of this when I'm president. Of course, this was supposed to be a debate, but we all know this wasn't going to go anywhere. I won't waste your time, but will use it productively. That's what I do. We're going to talk about all the great things I'm going to do as pres---

    [The microphone at Trump's podium goes dead.]

    TRUMP: [shouting] Oh that's nice. Who did that??!! [he lunges over to Hillary's empty podium] *tap, tap* Is this thing on? Good. So as I was--

    [The microphone at Hillary's podium goes dead. Trump motions to someone off the stage, who then comes trotting out wearing a black uniform with a hand-held megaphone.]

    TRUMP: You see folks? I come prepared. Always. That's how I'll serve as your next commander in chief, always prepared, unlike that weakling Muslim Barack HUSSEIN Obama, who has ties to terrorists.

    [By this time there are people running about the audience section, and the moderators are busy chatting with building staff about the uncontrollable situation.]

    TRUMP: You moderators there. Yes, you. [one of them looks at Trump] Step up. Let's get this party started. Ask me some questions. Let's not waste any more time. I've got things to do. We're getting down to business.

    [The moderator gives a disgusted look at Trump shaking her head from side-to-side.]

    TRUMP: OK, so you're a loser, afraid to step up. Who's next? Who is going to man up and ask me some questions? Anyone? No one? OK, well like I said I always come prepared. I have a speech right here [rustles through some papers from his breast jacket pocket].

    MODERATOR: [speaking to the camera] Well folks, as you can see, another Trump debacle. This planned presidential debate has turned into chaos. I'm afraid we won't be able to continue the broadcast at this time. Please tune in--

    TRUMP: [having seized the opportunity, lunged forward towards the moderator with the camera.] Oh no, you're not getting off that easy! We have a scheduled program here, and we're following through with it--

    MODERATOR: Mr. Trump! We've had enough of this!

    [Before Trump can say another word, he's caught off guard. A group of 5 policemen have come onto the stage, one of them pointing at Trump.]


    And well... you can imagine the rest.
    Last edited by myu; July 20th, 2016 at 09:07 PM.

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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict

    Quote Originally Posted by myu View Post
    ...Trump motions to someone off the stage, who then comes trotting out wearing a black uniform with a hand-held megaphone...]
    That was good! The funny thing is that line about a black uniform and a hand-held megaphone reminded me of Pink Flloyd's, The Wall.

    Something like...(and with apologies to Roger Waters)

    Hush now baby, baby, don't you cry.
    Donald’s gonna make all your nightmares come true.
    Donald’s gonna put all his fears into you.
    Donald’s gonna keep you right his under his wing.
    He won't let you fly, but he might let you sing.
    Donald’s gonna keep baby cozy and warm.
    Ooh baby, ooh baby, ooh baby,
    Of course Donald’s gonna help build the wall.

    Hush now baby, baby don't you cry.
    Donald’s gonna check out all your girlfriends for you.
    Donald won't let anyone dirty get through.
    Donald’s gonna wait up until you get in.
    Donald will always find out where you've been.
    Donald’s gonna keep baby healthy and clean.
    Ooh baby, ooh baby, ooh baby,
    You'll always be baby to me.

    Donald, did it need to be so high?

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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict

    ^ Holy crap, duckmcf! Spot on, man. Awesome analogy to The Wall. Scary and unsettling, isn't it?


    What really got me was Chris Christie. Not far off what my dream touched on, his speech spent some time fixated on Hillary. As Attorney General, he would "put her behind bars," virtually throwing out due process. And the audience starts chanting "Lock her up! Lock her up!" "Build up the wall! Build up the wall!" (I added the 2nd verse obviously, but sure felt like that would be the next thing).

    Friggin' witch hunt mentality. Distorting truths and throwing out the entire US Constitution like it's nothing but some antique wall paper.
    Last edited by myu; July 23rd, 2016 at 11:41 AM.

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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict






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    Cool Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict

    Quote Originally Posted by myu View Post
    I had this crazy dream ...

    Before Trump can say another word, he's caught off guard. A group of 5 policemen have come onto the stage, one of them pointing at Trump.

    And well... you can imagine the rest.
    First question I always have in dream interpretation is how often do your sleeping imaginings achieve fruition in reality?

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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict


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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict


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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict


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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict


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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict

    "We of this generation who are privileged to help make a better world for ourselves and for posterity should remember that, while we must not be visionary, we must have vision so that peace should not be punitive in spirit and should not be provincial or nationalistic or even continental in concept, but universal in scope and -- and humanitarian in action, for modern science has so annihilated distance that what affects one people must of necessity affect all other peoples."

    Vote Republican!

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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict

    Other than being a citizen of the world, I really don't have a dog in this fight.
    I'm as reasonably sure as I can be that my life won't change a jot no matter who wins.

    That said, here's a couple of things that I'd thought I'd mention.

    The Wall.
    The US has ~12,000 miles of coastline. There's a basic logic disconnect if you think that building a wall between the US and Mexico will make a scrap of difference to illegal immigration. Hell, I read on the news today that a couple of kids wandered into the US from Canada following Pokemon. The authorities can't even keep illegal drugs out of jails, what makes you think that they can seal the boarder tight as a drum? I'm sure Trump knows this. Perhaps he's using the concept of a big beautiful wall as a metaphor so that in peoples minds the link is made between a big, strong and unyielding wall and the man himself. NONE SHALL PASS!

    The Fear.
    After years of the media pumping fear into everybody on every topic left and right, that same media now has it's collective nickers-is-a-twist / panties-in-a-bunch that a charismatic businessman is riding the fear wave, that they created, to a likely victory.
    I mean what did they think was going to happen? Fascism didn't spring up in Europe because everyone was feeling good.

    The Numbers.
    Since the year 2000 how many people in western countries have been killed by organised terrorism? Perhaps 5000, let's call it 10,000. Now, not wanting to minimise those people and their families real suffering that resulted from those attacks, but in the same period how many people were killed by, smoking/cars/domestic violence/obesity/etc., etc. My point being that the death toll from terrorism is much less than from these other factors and I think we loose perspective.

    On the other hand, Siria is a mess. It's likely that the west will be asked to resettle 1m+ people in the coming years. What percentage of these refuges will be battle hardened terrorists, hell bent on kicking their cause along in the west? 1%, 0.1%, 0.01%? I would hope that our collective intelligence agencies are up to the task, but say they catch 90% of that 0.01%. That leaves 10 people let in to wreak havoc as best they can. Is 10 an acceptable number? Obviously 0 is the number everyone wants, but to achieve that are we collective content to close our boarders to the remaining 99.99% of the refugees that are suffering?

    I don't have the answers to any of these questions. They're difficult and morally challenging questions on multiple levels. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you need to be skeptical of anyone in politics that tells you the answer to these questions is simple, and all you have to do is follow him/her.

    Anyway, I'm old enough to remember that the world ridiculed the US for electing Ronald Reagan, twice.
    Now he's fondly remembered as a good economic manager who more-or-less won the cold war.

    Who knows, maybe Trump could also turn out to be a great president. Or maybe not. Or maybe he won't get the chance.
    What ever happens, it'll be fun to watch from 10,000 miles away.

    Cheers
    Noel
    Last edited by duckmcf; July 25th, 2016 at 11:34 PM.

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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict

    Quote Originally Posted by duckmcf View Post
    Anyway, I'm old enough to remember that the world ridiculed the US for electing Ronald Reagan, twice.
    Now he's fondly remembered as a good economic manager who more-or-less won the cold war.

    Who knows, maybe Trump could also turn out to be a great president. Or maybe not. Or maybe he won't get the chance.
    What ever happens, it'll be fun to watch from 10,000 miles away.
    Reagan can be seen quite differently, depending upon what lenses you choose to look through. Emotional or factual?

    Well, it seems FACTUAL is out of fashion these days, especially with the Republican party. So, Reagan is a hero to them.

    Reagan was great for his first few years in office, because he rallied the SPIRIT of the American people. But after that subsided, what was next? Economics. And he failed miserably, setting in motion a wave of deregulation that has brutally contaminated our ability to keep pollution to a minimum, and an enormous budget deficit that took a full term of George H W Bush to repair... which then, Bill Clinton took credit (although he did keep it going to depart 8 years later with a BUDGET SURPLUS, so he has kudos in there). Reagan CAPITALIZED on what was already happening in Europe. He placed the last straw on the camel's back, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall!" and then it fell... so he gets credit, despite not doing much prior to that famous quote. It was going to fall anyway.

    We've heard the RNC speeches and there's no substance of facts or tangible policies offered. Only emotion. "Believe me" is what Trump says repeatedly. Just trust him, even though he has no plans. That sure worked out well with 6 bankruptcies to his name. Then Mike Pense who is the biggest flip-flopper since John Kerry. He's completely against LGBT... and there was Trump saying he'll support them while reciting the letters uncomfortably (because he's not very familiar with it, thinking he might get it wrong).

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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict

    Quote Originally Posted by myu View Post
    Reagan can be seen quite differently, depending upon what lenses you choose to look through. Emotional or factual?

    Well, it seems FACTUAL is out of fashion these days, especially with the Republican party. So, Reagan is a hero to them.

    Reagan was great for his first few years in office, because he rallied the SPIRIT of the American people. But after that subsided, what was next? Economics. And he failed miserably, setting in motion a wave of deregulation that has brutally contaminated our ability to keep pollution to a minimum, and an enormous budget deficit that took a full term of George H W Bush to repair... which then, Bill Clinton took credit (although he did keep it going to depart 8 years later with a BUDGET SURPLUS, so he has kudos in there). Reagan CAPITALIZED on what was already happening in Europe. He placed the last straw on the camel's back, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall!" and then it fell... so he gets credit, despite not doing much prior to that famous quote. It was going to fall anyway.
    I live around 10,000 miles from DC and so I'll have to take your word on the facts vs. legend of The Ronald.
    I also agree that peoples views are skewed based on their political bias.
    Normalising for Republicans, I guess what I was getting at is that Reagan is remembered more fondly than say, George W. Bush or Richard Nixon.

    Quote Originally Posted by myu View Post
    We've heard the RNC speeches and there's no substance of facts or tangible policies offered. Only emotion. "Believe me" is what Trump says repeatedly. Just trust him, even though he has no plans. That sure worked out well with 6 bankruptcies to his name. Then Mike Pense who is the biggest flip-flopper since John Kerry. He's completely against LGBT... and there was Trump saying he'll support them while reciting the letters uncomfortably (because he's not very familiar with it, thinking he might get it wrong).
    I completely agree. Trump is using weapons grade persuasion techniques that Hillary is having trouble countering.
    Facts don't matter. Policies don't matter. It's all about the messaging and conditioning.
    The branding of "Crooked Hillary", is really a killer blow!
    Her counter of "Crazy Racist" looked good, but it doesn't seem to have stuck.

    Unless Hillary and her team pulls a massive rabbit out their collective hats, right now I just can't see how The Donald can loose.
    Fingers crossed that the US and the rest of the world don't loose as a result of his win.

    Cheers
    Noel

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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict

    While there is validity to the viewpoint of emotional vs factual lenses, I would submit that there is also the political / philosophical lenses. The liberal vs conservative divide is enormous right now, because of the media to a great extent. Both sides use emotion and rhetoric as weapons, and neither side has a monopoly on facts.

    Reagan, for example, had a Democrat controlled Congress. They "compromised" to spend like drunken sailors on each others' pet projects. Reagan spent on the military (which the Soviets couldn't keep pace with, and lending to their collapse), and the Democrats spent on social programs.

    Clinton got a Republican controlled Congress midway through his first term. Newt Gingrich and Co were the architects of the "contract with America" and the balanced budget. The surplus Clinton enjoyed was partly due to that, but partly due to the "peace dividend" post Soviet collapse.

    In both cases, each side bears responsibility for the good and bad. But individuals will still place the blame on the "other" party and credit to "theirs".

    At the end of the day, they're all politicians - which is to say professional liars and manipulators who will do anything to further their self interest. Thinking your side is the "honest", or "correct" side is merely a sign that you're not honest with yourself.

    Last edited by dneal; July 26th, 2016 at 06:25 PM.

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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict

    ^^^^^ Fricken nailed it!
    Nice work!
    Cheers
    Noel

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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict

    ^ Each have lied. There's no doubt about that. But the context and gravity of those lies... that's the key. One can spin some lies to look more serious than they are. But in the end it's really about the CAUSE and EFFECT factor. Many more people have been hurt by Trump's lies than Hillary's lies.

    But point blank, one must recognize that BUSINESS experience pales in comparison to POLITICAL experience when it comes to serving in public office. Bloomberg can attest to that, having been both a billionaire entrepreneur and the major of New York City. Donald Trump is too ill equipped to take on the role of president. He doesn't know the ropes. The claim that being an outsider is an advantage is baseless. He'll need at least 4 years on the job learning the ropes before he could really make proper decisions. We don't have 4 years to waste with an on-the-job trainee.

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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict

    Quote Originally Posted by duckmcf View Post
    I live around 10,000 miles from DC and so I'll have to take your word on the facts vs. legend of The Ronald.
    I also agree that peoples views are skewed based on their political bias.
    Normalising for Republicans, I guess what I was getting at is that Reagan is remembered more fondly than say, George W. Bush or Richard Nixon.

    Quote Originally Posted by myu View Post
    We've heard the RNC speeches and there's no substance of facts or tangible policies offered. Only emotion. "Believe me" is what Trump says repeatedly. Just trust him, even though he has no plans. That sure worked out well with 6 bankruptcies to his name. Then Mike Pense who is the biggest flip-flopper since John Kerry. He's completely against LGBT... and there was Trump saying he'll support them while reciting the letters uncomfortably (because he's not very familiar with it, thinking he might get it wrong).
    I completely agree. Trump is using weapons grade persuasion techniques that Hillary is having trouble countering.
    Facts don't matter. Policies don't matter. It's all about the messaging and conditioning.
    The branding of "Crooked Hillary", is really a killer blow!
    Her counter of "Crazy Racist" looked good, but it doesn't seem to have stuck.

    Unless Hillary and her team pulls a massive rabbit out their collective hats, right now I just can't see how The Donald can loose.
    Fingers crossed that the US and the rest of the world don't loose as a result of his win.

    Cheers
    Noel
    If you're interested and can view them, watch the speeches from the DNC (Democrat) sessions held this week. Then watch the RNC (Republican) ones. It will astound you to hear the differences.

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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict

    Well, it has all become clear now... that Trump really wasn't in this for the presidency, but for media attention and brand recognition. He has partnered with lauded media professionals now, people who have no political campaign experience but tons of mileage on generating media attention and advertising revenue. Trump now has his partners... and will be geared up to cash out in a huge way once the election is done. He really doesn't care about the presidency. He never did. Why? BECAUSE HE HAS NEVER BEEN A PUBLIC SERVANT. Being one is the antithesis to his lifestyle. Yes, going down in history as a US president is a pretty big deal, but Trump wouldn't want to sacrifice his freedom. Because as president, you are hostage to an intense focus of demand on your time. Plus, there's the HUGE HEADACHE that would befall him regarding his assets. All Trump holdings would have to be moved into a blind trust... which would require selling. And his children wouldn't likely follow suit on that. If not, then the president becomes extremely biased, forced to make decisions on policies that affect his assets. Total conflict of interest. No... Trump doesn't want to face that.

    This was all about his name, his ego... nothing more. He took all of those Trump supporters for one big ride... to nothing.

    To-Trump-Even-Losing-Is-Winning

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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict

    Win (unlikely) or lose (likely) the impact of Trump will probably be positive in the long run. Trump (politically) is just a product of the underlying problems/issues that has driven his campaign and clearly visible to both parties. The political reality is now how to address this in a positive fashion to ensure there isn't a repeat and the concerns of those people eased. That he has a chance to win at all doesn't say much for the Democrats either.

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    Default Re: How far can it go? [presidential race] Who knows. Until then, how about some fict

    Donald Trump still won't release his tax returns, and WILL NOT in time for the election. NO US PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE has ever done this before. Why? Because it signals a disingenuous position.

    He did reveal his debt obligations. And it's to HUNDREDS of very small banks/lenders. Why? Because the larger banks WILL NOT DO BUSINESS WITH TRUMP, due to his defaulting history. His bankruptcies that cost them millions.

    And... people are still voting for this man, with his track record of financial debauchery. He became a billionaire by first becoming a millionaire through conventional, practical means -- developing properties and weaseling out great deals for himself based on the timing (all started by a "small loan" from his father... and then largely fueled by his inheritance). But when the development business wouldn't tolerate his dynamic, his scheming to "play poker" with investor funds, and cheat people out of their money, they stopped cooperating. Once Trump had a good solid half billion to his name, he turned around and made a media empire. He had the "showmanship" to do The Apprentice. And license his name for development projects where he has NOTHING to do with it but licensing his name. Meaningless. THAT is how he became a billionaire. By "illusion."

    So this is the man that a large portion of people would want to see as our president. It's deplorable.

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