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Thread: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

  1. #41
    Senior Member Sammyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    There are many people here I like, I like people that I have given negative rep to. I agree that "this is just an internet forum" and nothing SHOULD be personal; but very often it is taken that way. In my job and my hobbies alike, I don't see it as negative comments, but rather constructive criticism... But not everybody feels the same way I do and often see it as a personal attack... I suppose years of martial arts training have hardened me to it. But learning form older forums that I no longer frequent, I try to be careful about the words I use; the tonal quality and wherever possible emoticons to help express my emotion while typing rather than someone "interpreting how I feel" based on "how they feel". Maybe the site IS in need of moderators... but I have been a member of forums where the moderators are the "old guard" that defend their own, right or wrong... so is it really a good solution? self policing is a must, and I ask senior members to use positive AND negative rep to try and bring US ALL back in-line (me included).

    I have tried to get a few other threads back on track, so in that same vain...

    When you look at the FPN Classifieds, there is a scoring system for the people selling based on their forum rep and usage. I am not saying that should be introduced here, but it's an interesting thought.
    Is it possible to set up a system where a person must have X number of posts in pen related threads (not the Lounge, etc...) before they can post a pen for sale? thoughts?
    Sam O

    "A fountain pen with a bad nib is like a Ferrari with a flat tyre..." - Brian Gray, Edison pens

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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    I don't know Stub but I do know Laura. She is terrific. Laura is intelligent, knowledgeable, kind, and generous. Any site would benefit from having her as a contributing member.

    Kids sometimes get into fights in the schoolyard. They either make up and put it behind them, or just avoid each other. They still go to the same school.

    Neighbors sometimes get into disagreements. They either settle their differences and put it behind them, or just avoid each other. They still live in the same neighborhood.

    Any site is like a schoolyard or neighborhood. The larger it gets, the more likely somebody will have an issue with somebody else from time to time. The difference is, the internet and Forums like this make everything disagreement public.

    Hopefully, Stub and Laura can settle their differences, and hopefully (for all our sakes) they will do that by Private Message or Email and not here!

    Just my opinion. Now I'll go back to playing with pens.

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    Member morningtundra's Avatar
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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    I must confess to being one of "those" you speak of. And having slept on the original post I felt I should pipe-up.

    I'm an introverted lurker with a rather narrowly focused interest in a particular, inexpensive and unexciting brand and model.

    There seems to be very little traffic in the "Brand Focus" section that I subscribe to. The other forum areas are of little interest to me. No offense intended but I'm just not knowledgable, interested or rich enough (have you seen some of those prices!?!) to relate.

    So I posted my first FS ad in the classifieds recently. I was prompted to try here (despite being unknown to the community), due to the increasing amount of spam, phishing and scamming messages I've been getting on Ebay.

    I'm not a "trader"; just a white collar chap with more personal pens than I can justify. I'm pretty small-time with maybe $1,000 (tops) invested in pens. If I can pass a nice pen on to someone that will care for it and use it, I'll be happy. If I can avoid losing money on it, I'll be happier.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm sorry if people like me have upset "the community" in any way.

    I'm just a regular chap with not a lot to say and a few too many pens!

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  7. #44
    Senior Member carlc's Avatar
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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    Morningtundra

    Off topic (perhaps): which brand/model?

    Okay did some detective work. I can see what you mean - tumbleweed.

    I'm afraid the 75 isn't a pen for me, sorry. I'd love to have been able to discuss it with you but it's a pen that doesn't suit my hand.

    Don't worry about your sales post - as far as I'm concerned you've made the effort to engage with the community and thus the thread doesn't refer to you.

    Carl

    Sent from my E2303 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by carlc; September 6th, 2016 at 10:49 AM.

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by morningtundra View Post
    I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm sorry if people like me have upset "the community" in any way.

    I'm just a regular chap with not a lot to say and a few too many pens!
    Believe me, it was not my intent to single out any person or persons. It truly was the case of "noticing a trend" and wanting to discuss it. Not only that, there is nothing in place in FPG that prohibits what you are doing, and certainly in that sense, you have violated no stated nor implied guidelines, so continue interacting the way it feels best for you.

    That said, I hope you'll eventually feel good about participating a bit more - things really get interesting when the voices in the chorus multiply!

    tl;dr - It's all good.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    FP Enthusiast Emeritus mhosea's Avatar
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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    In particular I am tickled with the 'downsizers' who are selling with one hand and buying like crazy with the other.
    Hey, I really am downsizing! I don't think I've bought a pen this year. Problem is, I can hardly be bothered to list anything for sale because it just seems like too much work. I've got a pretty nice Targa collection that I'm pretty sure I can live without, except for the factory oblique in my pocket today. What was I thinking? Guess I should stop razzing Jon about never getting that round 'tuit to sell any of his pens.
    --
    Mike

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  13. #47
    FPG Donor ♕ Chrissy's Avatar
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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sammyo View Post

    I have actually started holding "highly respected people" on this forum accountable for their actions. They are the ones that are supposed to set the tone; they are the ones that are supposed to rise above the crap and show them how we act on FPGeeks.......

    But a society without accountability is doomed to fail.

    I have waffled a lot, I have upset people here recently and I'm honestly not sorry. We need to get back to what we were, the sales forum will be overflowed for a while, hopefully that will subside as FPN gets back on track and hopefully our friendly community will too.
    I applaud you for your actions in holding 'highly respected people' on this forum accountable for their actions, and agree with those sentiments. It would seem to many that FPG is a society without accountability and that must surely be avoided.

    However, it would seem to me that your selection process for these 'highly respected people' may be slightly flawed, in that to some on here, it may look like you are randomly picking out people to receive your judgement. Also, I have seen that you are making your selections from statements that are not current.

    If you have decided to promote yourself as Judge, jury and executioner, then I'm sure you would agree that it would be prudent to treat everyone equally, without showing any apparent bias, rather than to just select any old phrase from a particular person to apply your treatment to.

    I recently watched a film and found that your actions brought to my mind a famous quote by Benjamin Franklin that was repeated in there, so I'm going to repeat it here. 'That it is better 100 guilty persons should escape than that one innocent person should suffer.'

    If I had decided to appoint myself, as you have done, I would be sure to follow that maxim.

    On the other hand, I am rather saddened that you have decided to publicise the fact that you have taken it upon yourself to hold a few people accountable for their actions. It must surely not have escaped you that there are many who don't know how the system even works, let alone the fact that there is a system available at all.

    So in publicising that fact that you are now holding a few people accountable for their own actions, by making use of the reward and punishment system that is available on FPG, you might even yourself be accused of kicking some while they are down. I can only hope that was not your intention.

    I have a current promise, to review Mystery Ink #13. Then I will review whether I will continue to post on here or not.
    Last edited by Chrissy; September 7th, 2016 at 04:45 AM.

  14. #48
    Senior Member Sammyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    However, it would seem to me that your selection process for these 'highly respected people' may be slightly flawed, in that to some on here, it may look like you are randomly picking out people to receive your judgement. Also, I have seen that you are making your selections from statements that are not current.
    A comment made in August about a post in July is, I feel, current enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    If you have decided to promote yourself as Judge, jury and executioner, then I'm sure you would agree that it would be prudent to treat everyone equally, without showing any apparent bias, rather than to just select any old phrase from a particular person to apply your treatment to.
    1. Judge, jury and executioner is a bit over the top. This is not Salem and no one is actually hurt or serving time. I just let you know that I disagreed with the way you handled someting within the bounds of the forum rules.

    2. You say I act with bias, but you don't know who I have given negative feedback to. For all you know I actually did give negative feedback to the other person elsewhere on the forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    I recently watched a film and found that your actions brought to my mind a famous quote by Benjamin Franklin that was repeated in there, so I'm going to repeat it here. 'That it is better 100 guilty persons should escape than that one innocent person should suffer.'
    Ok, so let's get some perspective here. If me and Steve have a disagreement down the pub because he tried to kiss my girlfriend when he was drunk. When we go to work the next day, if in a meeting I snap at him everyone else in the meeting thinks "well that was a bit uncalled for! I think Sam needs to calm down!". We all have bad days, we all do silly things, but I see a forum as an office, not a bar. I (try to) threat the people like there was a HR department. Normally that would be the Moderators, but this site has none, it has no HR department.

    I do not know the in and outs of every members lives; I do not read every thread in every room. I can only respond to what I see and what I saw was unnecessary, it basically came down to "I didn't ask you did I, so shut up and butt out!". They way to deal with a troll is to ignore them, if you react you give them ammunition, you give them the fire they want to react to; that is forum 101.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    On the other hand, I am rather saddened that you have decided to publicise the fact that you have taken it upon yourself to hold a few people accountable for their actions. It must surely not have escaped you that there are many who don't know how the system even works, let alone the fact that there is a system available at all.

    So in publicising that fact that you are now holding a few people accountable for their own actions, by making use of the reward and punishment system that is available on FPG, you might even yourself be accused of kicking some while they are down. I can only hope that was not your intention.
    Re-read my post, I told people to hold me accountable too, I am not above being wrong and have been in the past. Hand held high, I am no saint.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    I have a current promise, to review Mystery Ink #13. Then I will review whether I will continue to post on here or not.
    Please don't leave because of me. If anything I seem to be in the minority and contribute far less than you do. I have decided another hiatus is in order for me. It looks like wanting a nice thing to be nice is just not wanted, and I'm the only one that sees it as an office and everyone else see it as a bar or coffee shop. It appears that my image and expectations are out of sync with most others. I'm not angry, or sad, in fact I don't feel anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sammyo View Post
    ... I'm honestly not sorry...
    In retrospect, I do apologise, I am sorry. It appears that my good intentions are as bad as any other behaviour.

    So back on track...

    I have noticed a number of new discussions starting since this thread went up. There appears to have been a positive outcome from this thread.
    Sam O

    "A fountain pen with a bad nib is like a Ferrari with a flat tyre..." - Brian Gray, Edison pens

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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    ...noticed most of the above. Also, maybe more fun conversations would happen if 'one' wouldn't get clobbered with a 2x4 sooner or later each time one innocently posts a personal notion that inadvertently contains an error...
    Last edited by inklord; September 7th, 2016 at 09:23 AM. Reason: added smiley to reduce sting

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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sammyo View Post
    A comment made in August about a post in July is, I feel, current enough.

    1. Judge, jury and executioner is a bit over the top. This is not Salem and no one is actually hurt or serving time. I just let you know that I disagreed with the way you handled someting within the bounds of the forum rules.

    2. You say I act with bias, but you don't know who I have given negative feedback to. For all you know I actually did give negative feedback to the other person elsewhere on the forum.

    I do not know the in and outs of every members lives; I do not read every thread in every room. I can only respond to what I see and what I saw was unnecessary, it basically came down to "I didn't ask you did I, so shut up and butt out!". They way to deal with a troll is to ignore them, if you react you give them ammunition, you give them the fire they want to react to; that is forum 101.
    Sammy, As you wish me to be accurate, the original post was made on July 25th. No-one felt compelled enough to vote that it was bad enough to warrant a bad reputation comment until September 1st when you decided you didn't like it. Actually, my one big mistake was missing out the word 'David' from the beginning of my original question, and I sincerely apologise that I forgot that. I really thought that I had said it, and that was the only reason for my subsequent comment. For that omission, I may now have to hold my head in shame forever.

    'no one is actually hurt' You're wrong there too. I am really hurt. I am so hurt that I have lost lots of sleep over this and it has been a constant worry to me. So please will you think about any potential repercussions the next time you decide to hurt someone’s reputation.

    'You say I act with bias, but you don't know who I have given negative feedback to. For all you know I actually did give negative feedback to the other person elsewhere on the forum.'
    I didn't say you act with bias. I said ‘be prudent that you don't act with bias’. And I certainly did check on who else had annoyed you enough that you had left bad reputation comments for. In fact I looked through many pages of reputation comments when I received that notification. I could find no bad reputation comments at all, other than those that have historically been left for trolls, or by trolls. In fact, to be specific, the last bad reputation comment was left by Dreck for the troll Special K on 07/13/2015. And the one before that was left in March 2015. So if you have left bad reputation comments for other people, they aren't visible on the Reputation Board that I, and everyone else, can see. I wonder if you might be confusing neutral reputation comments with bad ones? They are not the same.

    'They way to deal with a troll is to ignore them, if you react you give them ammunition, you give them the fire they want to react to; that is forum 101.' I do try my best to avoid and ignore this troll. She has been on my ignore list for years, and she knows this. I try to avoid any dealings with her. However, if you just look around on threads on here and on FPN you will be able to see that she seems to follow me around trolling about many things that I post. And I didn’t mean what you thought I meant. I know you don’t care and you won’t believe me, but I genuinely meant the sort of scratching of the head comment ‘I thought I was talking to someone else.’ You know, when you sort of doubt yourself and wonder how something happened that you didn’t intend? And you wonder where you went wrong? I actually thought I had mentioned the word ‘David’, but hands held high, I hadn’t and I made the mistake of thinking I had. Fear not, if I had seriously wanted to be rude, I would have just said ‘Sorry but I don’t remember asking you a question’ rather than what I actually said.
    Last edited by Chrissy; September 7th, 2016 at 02:57 PM.

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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    Although I am sorry that people have had hurt feelings about some of the exchanges on FPGeeks, I am happy to see that the nature and tone of interactions are being discussed. I have raised this issue about this site several times over the last three years, often with little demonstrable support for more restraint and respect in tone and demeanor (except for the occasional private message sent my way). Most often I was responded to with "like it or leave it," which, of course, is true. But really only at a base level. But ultimately, if nothing changes, then it means that we are at the basest level.

    I don't know anything about this "reputation" stuff.

    The OP apparently raised a question about persons selling pens without posting often. It seems to me that that point is not what is causing the most suffering around here. Something else is. Each person who posts will either care or not care, be mindful or not mindful. The proof will be in the pudding.

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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    Hi TSherbs,

    I apologise that I'm mostly to blame for this thread going 'off topic' and I don't plan to post any more about the incident that directly involved me, that Sammy mentioned.

    So far as this reputation stuff is concerned, I'm a bit mystified by one of the comments that Sammy made about giving others bad reputation, since he hasn't done so. He hasn't given anyone any bad reputation other than that he gave to me.

    The Reputation Board is accessed from the Community Tab on the FPG Home page. Anyone can see it.

    Anyone can leave someone a reputation comment by pressing the star logo on any post, and then adding to a users reputation. You can select good reputation (green), neutral reputation (black), or bad reputation (red). When you leave someone a good reputation comment, you add to their reputation by the value of your own Rep Power, from your Avatar. In your case if you left someone good reputation, they would get a plus 4. Neutral reputation gets anyone a zero, and Bad reputation gets anyone a minus 1.

    That's as much as I know. I don't have a clue how reputation given in posts gets transferred to a persons individual Rep Power.
    Last edited by Chrissy; September 7th, 2016 at 02:59 PM.

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    Senior Member migo984's Avatar
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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    Sammyo owes Chrissy an apology for his inappropriate use of negative feedback.
    No he doesn't.

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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    Chrissy, you are good with me.

    And thanks for explaining; I had no idea. And honestly, I find that rating process strange and weird and kindof middle-school cliquish. One thing I really don't like about Reddit is all that up down stuff that you can do to other people's posts. I find it odd for an adult to engage in.

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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    I've never been on Reddit. So I know nothing about it.

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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    Sammyo owes Chrissy an apology for his inappropriate use of negative feedback.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sammyo View Post
    In retrospect, I do apologise, I am sorry. It appears that my good intentions are as bad as any other behaviour.
    Check the thread... I did, without being prompted.
    Sam O

    "A fountain pen with a bad nib is like a Ferrari with a flat tyre..." - Brian Gray, Edison pens

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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    And thanks for explaining; I had no idea. And honestly, I find that rating process strange and weird and kindof middle-school cliquish. One thing I really don't like about Reddit is all that up down stuff that you can do to other people's posts. I find it odd for an adult to engage in.
    Absolutely, in spades. The downvote trolls almost caused me to bail on the site, but I like helping the n00bs so I just stepped back for a while. It is REALLY annoying at times, when some high school cretin downvotes out of spite, simply on some piece of data, like "yes, that pen uses a latex sac inside the barrel to store the ink".

    As to the rating system here, I'll be honest: I'm pretty sure it was in place for months before I even knew it existed, and I NEVER look at it or pay attention. In fact, the way this thread has documented it functions poorly as an indicator of the person's actual demeanor and behavior, and can be quite easily used for vindictive means. While I appreciate, sincerely, that people have given me positive feedback, I don't seek it. I think we should just make our own assessments of the character of forum members on the merits of their postings, and maybe sales behavior (if you are into sales).

    Last: hugs to Chrissy and Sammy. You guys are both good people, and this is something that can and should be put in the past, in lieu of a new and positive friendship.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Senior Member Sammyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    So here we go round the mulberry bush... Please read this in a soft, slightly sad tone, there is no aggression or spite in anything written below. I am doing this openly, and publicly and not hiding in a PM.

    Chrissy, you did not just omit a word, you asked a question on a forum that someone responded to and it shouldn't matter who. The correct response is either "nothing" or "Thanks for the info. David, does this match what you found?". There are two sides to everything and who knows where a story truly starts, because each person sees events in a way that fits their own perspective. I have (many years ago now) been involved in this kind of feud and after much deliberation and open discussion, found out that both of us were "technically right" and are now friends outside of that forum (not this one, not even pen related). I suppose that is why I hate to see it. Personal experience has shown me that "text without intonation" can be incredibly damaging and very often a post read with an unintended tone can cause factions and unnecessary hatred.

    And to curtail any other thoughts, I do not know Migo984 outside of the guess the ink thread, this is not a personal attack. I had originally said "I had started..." not finished. Yes you were the first, it was a comment that really pissed me off! It was not becoming of you and what I've seen of you here, I thought you were better than that... but it is clear that I am in the minority. This will be my last post in FPG for a while, I will not be taking part in MI#13 as it is clear I am the one that is not welcome here.

    Chrissy, I wish you well, I am sorry I caused you personal anguish, this was not my intent. I see this as a nothing more than a forum for people to talk happily about what they love without all the schoolyard crap. It is clear to me that this is much more to some people. I will give you positive rep to over-ride the negative rep I issued and not just on any post, a post that deserves it.

    The global time difference plays a huge factor in all of this too, plus the fact that I am very busy and tired right now.

    I wish you all well,

    Sam Oram (yes my real name, not a faceless unidentifiable user name)
    Sam O

    "A fountain pen with a bad nib is like a Ferrari with a flat tyre..." - Brian Gray, Edison pens

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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sammyo View Post
    ...I see this as a nothing more than a forum for people to talk happily about what they love without all the schoolyard crap.
    You are in the majority here (sometimes a silent group, but growing in voice now) with this point of view. I don't understand why you think that this means that you are not welcome, but I have not understood a lot of this. But talking happily about pen stuff that we love IS the BEST reason to be here (IMO).


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    Default Re: So what's the deal with all the SALES threads?!?

    Anyone know where I can get a kilt?

  33. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Farmboy For This Useful Post:

    ethernautrix (September 10th, 2016), Frank (September 10th, 2016)

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