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    Default Legal Documents

    So......in terms of Law, official documents should ONLY be signed in Blue (sovereignty) or Purple (royalty). Black is *not* a good choice, as signing in black means you are a "dead entity". That's not to say you cannot sign in black.....most people do, but black stands for dead entity.

    I'm very surprised ink sellers don't have more permanent inks on catalog. Noodler's has the biggest collection of perm ink.....or, the term "bulletproof".

    A lot of permanent inks are really just water resistant, but only Noodler's has real bulletproof qualities.

    I've been meaning to try the Montblanc perm ink.......I'll buy some next month, but is it water resistant or real bulletproof?


    Any other inks (blue and purple) that are seriously bulletproof? I think Diamine has some water resistant shades, but I don't think it's true bulletproof.

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    Senior Member VegHead's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    MB Permament Ink is not bulletproof imo. I use Super5 Darmstadt though and extremely happy with its performance.

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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    Noodler's Legal Lapis is a very interesting bullet-proof...Blue, as the Lapis attests, but it leans heavily to the green-side.
    FPGeeks= Nomdeplume
    FPN= mbankirer
    PenTrace= mb

    Happy Writing!

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    Senior Member The Good Captain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomdeplume View Post
    Noodler's Legal Lapis is a very interesting bullet-proof...Blue, as the Lapis attests, but it leans heavily to the green-side.
    As does the UK exclusive, 'Prime of the Commons'.
    The Good Captain
    (Gaston F Limoges)
    "Meddler's 'Salamander' - almost as good as the real thing!"

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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    Thanks for making me learn about the sovereign citizen movement! I learn something new every day.

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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    Quote Originally Posted by BayesianPrior View Post
    Thanks for making me learn about the sovereign citizen movement! I learn something new every day.
    The term "sovereign citizen" is wrong. One is either sovereign, OR they are a citizen. A citizen is a "subject" to something. A sovereign is subject to no one.

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    Nothing is better than something built for purpose:

    "Welcome to Ecclesiastical Stationery Supplies. ESS is your supplier of Registrars’ Ink. We are the authorized supplier of the special Blue-Black archival quality ink. It is the Ink that is required for official documents such as Birth certificates, Death Certificates and on Clergy rolls. We offer a fast, Worldwide, delivery service on our Registry Ink products."

    ESSRI


    I've used this for a number of years, and it really is the perfect product for its intended use. I don't know how "bulletproof" it is, but I also like Namiki Blue, which is very waterproof without ever advertising it, and is so well-behaved that it is one of my two go-to blue inks.

    For your consideration.
    Last edited by Jon Szanto; November 2nd, 2016 at 03:13 PM.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Senior Member oldstoat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    Under which jurisdiction is the choice of inks limited to blue and purple, and where is the source for that?
    I can say from personal observation thar Registrars of Births, Deaths and Marriages in England use Registrar's Ink but have never noticed other legal people being too fussy. Mostly solicitors and barristers seem to use the first ballpoint they can lay their hands on.
    Some days, it's hardly worth chewing through the leather straps....

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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    Quote Originally Posted by oldstoat View Post
    Under which jurisdiction is the choice of inks limited to blue and purple, and where is the source for that?
    I can say from personal observation thar Registrars of Births, Deaths and Marriages in England use Registrar's Ink but have never noticed other legal people being too fussy. Mostly solicitors and barristers seem to use the first ballpoint they can lay their hands on.
    Just going by what a judge told me. Basically, one can use any ink they want, but for true meaning: blue = sovereign, purple=royal, black=dead.

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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    Quote Originally Posted by mookie2112 View Post
    Just going by what a judge told me. Basically, one can use any ink they want, but for true meaning: blue = sovereign, purple=royal, black=dead.
    Given that rules/laws about this sort of thing vary state by state in the U.S, and that a large percentage of people using this forum are from countries other than the U.S., it might be helpful if you would answer the original question (ie What jurisdiction?).

    My only dealings with signing any documents that involved a lawyer were a couple years ago in Michigan, U.S.A., and the lawyer involved said that there were no legal requirements as to color of ink used. FWIW, most people were using some generic office supply store brand of gel pen, and I was using Hero 232 Blue Black.

    I have been told by lawyers of my acquaintance (a bunch of people I knew in college ended up as lawyers somehow) from other states that their state specifically required a certain color or colors for legal forms submitted to the state, or forbade some specific color.

    I have heard "wive's tales" about signing checks or contracts with red ink meant they weren't actually valid. I did not believe it and have asked a lawyer--a very good lawyer that I trust--about this. The lawyer verified that this was not correct.

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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    I also never heard about something like a color guidance.


    Define "Bulletproof", this is just a marketing slogan from the brand "Noodlers" nothing more.

    There are many permanent inks suitable for any kind of documents which will last many decades or even centuries.
    For sure much longer than your lifetime.

    As Jon said, beside others any iron gall ink will be more than suitable.

    If you search for a criteria and a proof of how permanent an ink is , don't use/define it with marketing slogans like "bulletproof" from a single Manufacturer as this will tell/proof nothing. beside that that Manufacturer name his permanent inks like that.
    Search for certified inks instead e.g. compliant to ISO 12757-2

    But for almost every user this is completely irrelevant, any permanent ink will do the job
    (and in many cases also non permanent inks.... did you ever tried to remove even non permanent ink completely without a trace and without damaging the paper?)
    Last edited by Pterodactylus; November 2nd, 2016 at 04:04 PM.

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    Senior Member carlos.q's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    Quote Originally Posted by Pterodactylus View Post
    I also never heard about something like a color guidance.
    In a conversation with a german FPN member, he explained that in old Prussian army tradition, the color of the ink was related to a specific hierarchy:

    In modern day German military headquarters or bureaucracy you often have more than just three layers of hierarchy. Therefore more colours have been introduced.

    In the Army the standard setup is:

    Green = Commanding officer or general
    Red = Deputy Commander
    Magenta = Chief of Staff
    Brown = Head of Branch
    Blue = Head of Sub-Branch
    Blue = everyone else



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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    Quote Originally Posted by Pterodactylus View Post
    I also never heard about something like a color guidance.


    Define "Bulletproof", this is just a marketing slogan from the brand "Noodlers" nothing more.

    There are many permanent inks suitable for any kind of documents which will last many decades or even centuries.
    For sure much longer than your lifetime.

    As Jon said, beside others any iron gall ink will be more than suitable.

    If you search for a criteria and a proof of how permanent an ink is , don't use/define it with marketing slogans like "bulletproof" from a single Manufacturer as this will tell/proof nothing. beside that that Manufacturer name his permanent inks like that.
    Search for certified inks instead e.g. compliant to ISO 12757-2

    But for almost every user this is completely irrelevant, any permanent ink will do the job
    (and in many cases also non permanent inks.... did you ever tried to remove even non permanent ink completely without a trace and without damaging the paper?)


    "Bulletproof" is basically everything proof. Waterproof, alcohol-proof, bleach-proof, UV light proof, laser-proof, etc.

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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    When I refinanced my mortgage I used KWZI iron gall turquoise.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
    Brad "Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind" - Rudyard Kipling

    "None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain-pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try." - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    Quote Originally Posted by Runnin_Ute View Post
    When I refinanced my mortgage I used KWZI iron gall turquoise.
    For that, I plan to use disappearing ink.

    Fred

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    Quote Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Runnin_Ute View Post
    When I refinanced my mortgage I used KWZI iron gall turquoise.
    For that, I plan to use disappearing ink.

    Fred
    I'd consider KWZ Thief's Red.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    In the 90s I signed a few legal documents, at that time I had Pelikan 4001 Koningsblau as my everyday ink.. if the signatures have faded by now am I still liable ???


    Quote Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Runnin_Ute View Post
    When I refinanced my mortgage I used KWZI iron gall turquoise.
    For that, I plan to use disappearing ink.

    Fred
    Unix is user-friendly ; it's just picky about who it's friends are -

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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    I always recommend to clients that they not use black ink on legal documents simply because it helps distinguish the original document from a photocopy.

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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    Quote Originally Posted by WallyRussell View Post
    I always recommend to clients that they not use black ink on legal documents simply because it helps distinguish the original document from a photocopy.
    This is the "rule of thumb" for every U.S. law office with which I am familiar. Blue means "original signature."

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    Default Re: Legal Documents

    Quote Originally Posted by WmEdwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by WallyRussell View Post
    I always recommend to clients that they not use black ink on legal documents simply because it helps distinguish the original document from a photocopy.
    This is the "rule of thumb" for every U.S. law office with which I am familiar. Blue means "original signature."
    When I worked in the nuclear power plant industry, I always wrote in blue. Someone in their infinite wisdom decided that black was the only color ink that could be used. I asked why. The answer was that blue didn't Xerox (copy). I used the copier in the office and the blue ink copied perfectly. My reply was that the blue demonstrated it was an origional document. I still had to use blue. That was in the 70’s.
    We have met the enemy and he is us.
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