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Thread: Pilot vermilion 845: a most difficult review of a confusing pen

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Pilot vermilion 845: a most difficult review of a confusing pen

    I recently added a Pilot 845 to my accumulation since I had sold off a bunch of pens and although it was slightly more expensive, the Vermilion Pilot Custom 845 with a BB nib called out to me. I was a little hesitant since the Pilot Namiki pens I did own never quite seemed to live up to expectations but since this was a higher end Pilot and also one custom built for only one dealer I figured I'd take a flyer.

    The good folk at Tokyo Pen Shop Quill sent me an email to say that the vermilion model was finally back in stock and sure enough, about six days later a package showed up. As always everything was very well packed and there was even lagniappe (they must be from the Far Eastern Creole community); an advertising ballpoint stylus and an origami stork.

    So first about the pen itself. It's a flat top in red and black. The nib is the largest on Pilots family of pens (#15 which is also used on the 743 and 823) with the body made from ebonite with an urushi coating. Pilot claims that only a very high quality Japanese origin urushi is used for the pen and the red parts certainly feel like urushi.

    Some pictures:











    The nib stamping shows an April 2015 manufacture code.






    In size the pens is about Pelikan M800 class but slightly larger both capped and uncapped.




    Long long ago and in a land far far away, in the year I graduated from High School, Mad magazine introduced "Spy vs Spy". In the series, two spies, one all in white, one all in black, hatch elaborate plans to get the other one, but they never succeed and in each case the plan actually ends up harming the originator. It was a continuing thread of great ideas that never quite work out and end in minor disaster, never so great as to stop the series but also never fully successful. The other thing was that throughout the series it was never quite clear who was good or who was bad.

    Unfortunately, this pen is kind like the series. It shows fantastic promise of success but then blows up in my face. Never a total failure but never a real success.

    First:

    There is no doubt that the urushi is superbly done, the ebonite body is light but...

    there just is not the depth found in the urushi finishes from Nakaya and Platinum, the section and end caps are just plastic and not urushi coated and the overall feeling is of a very nice mass produced object where the Platinum Izumo and Nakaya pens are definitely individual hand made objects.





    The nib is a big 18K "BB" but it is a European BB instead of a Japanese BB, wider even then the "C" nib I have on a Platinum President and that is the base for my Nakaya Mottishaw stub.



    I like wet nibs and but this one may be too wet even for me. I ran through a full Pilot cartridge during the first day testing. Switching to the Con-70 converter and Pelikan 4001 turned it from a gusher to just the wettest pen I own.

    Speaking of the Con-70 converter, while it is easy to use and hold lots of ink in this pen there is also a rattle I don't find when using a Con-70 in my other Pilot/Namiki pens. If you happen to tap the pen you hear and feel what I thought was the converter hitting against the inside of the barrel. Taking it apart though reveals a converter that feels rock solid with no play at all.

    You can tell the designers were thinking ahead, for example inside the cap lip is a felt band that will protect the body should the pen be used posted. BUT.. posting the pen really changes the balance and makes it very back heavy. Worse, the simple weight of the clip tend to try to rotate then to put the weight on the bottom. Posting with the clip on the down side places the clip right against the webbing of my hand. I have a Montegrappa Espressione Duetto with the heavy Sterling silver cap that naturally posts with the clip on the underside 180 degrees from the nib but it's long enough that the clip does not interfere with my hand and also heavy enough that the balance point does not change noticeably.

    Other reviews mention seams on the section. I can say that is simply not the case with this pen. The section is totally seamless both visually and by feel.

    In all, there is nothing truly bad about the pen, much that is really good and it is one I'll enjoy but it was so close to being a GREAT pen that the Spy vs Spy comparison hurts.
    Last edited by jar; December 5th, 2016 at 01:16 PM.

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pilot vermilion 845: a most difficult review of a confusing pen

    On another forum I was asked to add a few more pen size comparisons, specifically with the Parker Duofold Centennial so I will include the images here as well.

    From top to bottom: Montblanc 147, Waterman Man 100, Parker Duofold Centennial, Omas Paragon and the Pilot 845



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    Default Re: Pilot vermilion 845: a most difficult review of a confusing pen

    Thanks for a useful summary of your impressions. As you may recall I've lately been considering purchasing this pen (between this and the Platinum President).

    It never occurred to me this might be a "great" pen so I'm okay with your conclusion about that. I'm surprised that you don't have a seam on the grip section. As you suggested other reviews have said there is. One even has a picture clearly showing a seam. That wouldn't put me off either way as I don't see it affecting function.

    The only thing that really puts me off is the ball clip. I have never liked the look of that.

    At this point I think i lean more toward the Platinum for now. Maybe the 845 is reconsidered for 2017.

    Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to do your summary. I appreciate it.

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pilot vermilion 845: a most difficult review of a confusing pen

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliant Bill View Post
    Thanks for a useful summary of your impressions. As you may recall I've lately been considering purchasing this pen (between this and the Platinum President).

    It never occurred to me this might be a "great" pen so I'm okay with your conclusion about that. I'm surprised that you don't have a seam on the grip section. As you suggested other reviews have said there is. One even has a picture clearly showing a seam. That wouldn't put me off either way as I don't see it affecting function.

    The only thing that really puts me off is the ball clip. I have never liked the look of that.

    At this point I think i lean more toward the Platinum for now. Maybe the 845 is reconsidered for 2017.

    Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to do your summary. I appreciate it.
    If I get some sun today I'll try to get some pictures for you of the 845 and a Platinum President.

    In the review I tried to show the section from all angles, top, side, bottom, partially turned and honestly I can find no indication of any seam. It's certainly possible that it is an outlier and I'll also take a look at my 742 that uses the same section but right now it is with a friend who wanted to try it. However I don't remember there being a seam on it either.
    Last edited by jar; December 7th, 2016 at 05:03 AM. Reason: add info on seam

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    Default Re: Pilot vermilion 845: a most difficult review of a confusing pen

    Here are some pictures shot in natural light (cloudy day) of the 845 and a Platinum President. The President has a "C" nib but actually puts down a line slightly finer than the 845 "BB" nib.




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    Default Re: Pilot vermilion 845: a most difficult review of a confusing pen

    Well, I let the pen sit for five days capped but unused and it started up immediately. That's not unexpected and certainly a minimal requirement at best.

    I would still rate this pen as a good but certainly not great pen, cheaper than almost all the other urushi on ebonite pens out there and so a reasonable entry level offering when in the plain black. The vermilion version though is so close in price to Nakaya pens that I don't think it is really justifiable unless you want one of the specialty nibs, a flat top and really really want the color.

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    Default Re: Pilot vermilion 845: a most difficult review of a confusing pen

    Some late observations on my vermilion urushi 845 (I know jar has sold his):

    The urushi finish on my pen is perfect, with that wonderfully smooth feel. My section has two very fine seams--I have to use a magnifying glass to see them.

    I got the Waverly nib. I will admit that curiosity got the best of me. I wanted to see what the nib was like, and I'm attracted to Pilot/Namiki's red urushi pens (I also have the vermilion Yukari Royale and the vermilion #50). The nib is slightly broader than a Pilot fine, but much narrower than the medium on my 823. I don't find it to be particularly wet or dry. It's perfectly smooth--it arrived in good alignment. For some reason, this pen didn't take to my hand the same way Sheaffers with the Waverly Triumph type nibs do. I'm not sure why. I plan to give the pen a couple more tries. If I don't like it, the rarity of the color and the nib should make it easy to sell.

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    Default Re: Pilot vermilion 845: a most difficult review of a confusing pen

    Hi everyone Thanks for the reviews! They are rare... Can anyone comment on the feedback level on these nibs? Not everyone seems to agree. Thanks in advance

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pilot vermilion 845: a most difficult review of a confusing pen

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapientia View Post
    Hi everyone Thanks for the reviews! They are rare... Can anyone comment on the feedback level on these nibs? Not everyone seems to agree. Thanks in advance
    Yes. Feedback is totally dependent on the individual nib, the individual paper, the individual ink and the sensitivity of the individual user on a particular day. The reason not everyone agrees is that there really is no definition of feedback or any standard of individual tolerance or preference for feedback.

    The only way to get an answer is to try the item yourself.

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    Default Re: Pilot vermilion 845: a most difficult review of a confusing pen

    Hi Jar,

    While I have no comments on the rest of the review, but the "Japanese nibs tend to run a size finer than their western counterparts" (not quoted from your review) is only true till M nibs at most. Beyond that, Japanese nibs are as broad and as wet as the Western nibs of same nib width.

    Goodluck.

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pilot vermilion 845: a most difficult review of a confusing pen

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhruv View Post
    Hi Jar,

    While I have no comments on the rest of the review, but the "Japanese nibs tend to run a size finer than their western counterparts" (not quoted from your review) is only true till M nibs at most. Beyond that, Japanese nibs are as broad and as wet as the Western nibs of same nib width.

    Goodluck.
    Actually my experience has been that "sometimes Japanese nibs tend to run finer than Western nibs." I own far too many examples of Western fountain pens with nibs that lay down a line as fine as ANY Japanese fountain pen.

    As is often the case, what is common knowledge on the internet is simply wrong.

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    Default Re: Pilot vermilion 845: a most difficult review of a confusing pen

    You can see John Mottishaw's nib size estimates for a large variety of brands on nibs.com.

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