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Thread: Gender and the law

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    Default Gender and the law

    I thought I'd create a thread where the several legal (and obviously social) issues of discussion around gender and the law can have a home.

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    Although this topic has origins in the DeSantis thread, I'll simply post here this news: a federal judge has blocked implementation of the new anti-drag performance law in Tennessee, due, unsurprising to me, to the overly broad and vague language of the bill and its encroachment on First Amendment protections.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...s-in-tennessee

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    You never answered the question @dneal asked. Why would a female impersonator want to perform in front of children?
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    dneal (April 2nd, 2023)

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    Definitions also may be useful.

    Knowing helpful terms
    Other terms that might come up in a discussion about being transgender or gender diverse include:

    Agender. A person who doesn't identify with any gender label or who doesn't use gender as part of their identity.

    Cisgender. An individual whose gender identity and gender expression align with the sex assigned at birth.

    Cross-dressing. Dressing as the other gender. Cross-dressing isn't necessarily a sign of a person's gender identity or sexual orientation. Cross-dressing also isn't a sign of gender dysphoria.

    Gender-fluid. Displaying flexibility in gender identity and expression. Gender-fluid people typically aren't limited by gender norms and expectations. They may identify and express themselves as masculine, feminine, some combination of both or neither.

    Gender role. The norms and expectations a society associates with a person's sex assigned at birth.

    Gender minority stress. Stress related to stigma, prejudice and discrimination toward individuals with diverse gender identity and expression.

    Nonbinary. A person whose gender identity is a combination of or goes beyond the gender binary of female and male.

    Sex. A person's physical characteristics that traditionally are labeled as male or female.

    Transgender man and transgender woman. Terms used to describe a transgender individual's gender identity or expression within the gender binary. For example, the term "transgender woman" may be used for someone whose sex at birth was assigned male and who identifies as a woman. Not all transgender and gender-diverse people use these terms to describe themselves.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    You never answered the question @dneal asked. Why would a female impersonator want to perform in front of children?
    I don't respond to dneal any longer. So just answer it yourself, if you think it is a relevant question.

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    thanks for the free access

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    You never answered the question @dneal asked. Why would a female impersonator want to perform in front of children?
    I don't respond to dneal any longer. So just answer it yourself, if you think it is a relevant question.
    I asked it. Are you no longer responding to me as well, Ted?
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    On schools and parental notification about issues of gender at schools:

    I think that part of the problem is the practice by politicians of tying reasonable parental concerns for certain policies to other more political concerns that are loaded into bills just for later legislative score-cards and political ratings in primaries and general elections. For example, the Tenessee bill was actually an amendment itself, and my sense is that it was rushed and offered into law before its language was fully worked out (or, more cynically, simply to have a vote on "prurient" performance put on the record). Elsewhere (in Ohio, I believe), it has been a reasonable concern to request that parents be notified of violence at the schools and that book lists and course descriptions be made public. Many schools do this already (I had to do this for at least the last 15 years).

    Requiring by law that parents be notified by law of pronoun change requests also seems reasonable at first glance, but here is the problem with the legal requirement: Non-binary young people suffer abuse more often in the community and also more often in their own homes. There are times that what a school administrator fears most is how a parent (most often the father/male figure) may respond. There are times, actually, that what a school does is inform a state official and by law cannot inform a parent of what we learn at school. Our first obligation is to the safety and wellbeing of the children in our care, not a parent's sexual sensibility or sense of parental rights. Yes, parental rights and those of legal guardianship are huge, but child safety trumps these. So, a requirement that schools always (without exceptions for concerns of safety, etc) notify parents of issues of gender identity (pronoun requests, etc) will not typically be supported by educators. They are too extreme in their inflexibility and extremity. As I have written elsewhere, the best teaching and learning comes out of a trusting partnership, but parents must also recognize that actually student safety and well-being come first. State law says this, and our code of principles says this.

    As a teacher of high school writing, fairly regularly I had to decide whether to report out on things that I read in student papers, and to whom (if I felt the need). This was actually a very difficult process at times, and state law does have jurisdiction over my responsibility for (and legal jeopardy for) making these decisions correctly. I have had professional workshops on this topic, run by lawyers. The degree to which gender identity can (and, frankly, will) come up in writing and discussion in class will just be another quagmire of sloppy, vaguely written law (if passed).

    If parents have fears about whether their children are gender ambiguous and/or gender fluid or even suffering gender dysphoria, then what they do from what they see at home and how they handle the discussions and "culture of the home" around this topic will have much more impact than any recognition or acknowledgment will have at school (unless, of course, the school environment is actually a lot more safe for the young person than the home).

    Five Republicans voted against the congressional bill on parental rights and gender transitions (etc) because they felt that aspects of the bill were over-reaching or unnecessary. Boebert's amendments were particularly problemmatic for some, but those were voted down. Teachers agree with parents: the decisions about whether to provide hormonal support for a student in gender transition should be made by the family (student/parent/guardian) in concert with the support of the doctor in charge. If any of those things is missing (with a person under 18 yrs od), then the gender services should not proceed. I think that the clear majority of people agree with this. But the proposed laws go farther than this and want to disallow hormonal (and other) practices even when parents, young person, and medical professionals all agree that the treatment is preferred and beneficial. Taking away this right to consult with professionals and decide (in concert with the developmental needs of the child) what is best, medically, for their children would require (I would think) clear and convincing evidence of a preponderance of data that shows that allowing these treatments has results frequently contrary to their wishes and/or damages to the child's health and/or wellbeing. And by this I mean something more than the pain of challenging a society's sensibilities around fixed binary sexuality.
    Last edited by TSherbs; April 1st, 2023 at 11:14 AM. Reason: grammar, autocorrect

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    You never answered the question @dneal asked. Why would a female impersonator want to perform in front of children?
    I don't respond to dneal any longer. So just answer it yourself, if you think it is a relevant question.
    I asked it. Are you no longer responding to me as well, Ted?
    That's a biased question, and I have addressed this before. Repeatedly. If you have something to assert, just go ahead and do it. You seem to want me to defend these "men" (only) against charges in your own head. Why don't you just spell them out for others to read, and then we know what you mean so that we can respond?

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    Ted, you have a problem with open discussions. You either disparage other's views or you attempt to control the narratives. There is nothing biased about the question except that it does not flow in the path you want it to flow.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Ted, you have a problem with open discussions. You either disparage other's views or you attempt to control the narratives. There is nothing biased about the question except that it does not flow in the path you want it to flow.
    Spot on Chuck!
    You may have been "woke" for some time now but, apparently, you have finally awoken, so to speak!

    And, if I may, one additional truism:
    Given extremely well documented, irrefutable evidence (or data) which does not fit into his personal fantasy world or warped sense of beliefs, TSherbs will either ignore or fail to acknowledge it.

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    I wonder if that law would target this as a drag performance?



    The sexual offenses of clergy are frequent and well-documented. A real, rather than imagined, threat to children.

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    Thanks Chuck, but I am not the topic here. You're free to make comments on the topic, should you wish.

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    I wonder if that law would target this as a drag performance?



    The sexual offenses of clergy are frequent and well-documented. A real, rather than imagined, threat to children.
    Tennesseans have also written to newspapers, asking if this means that college cheerleaders will have to cover more of their bodies and change some of their routines (many children attend games). Dolly Parton got asked about it in another interview, and she said that she would not answer. She, of course, has many campy men and women and trans persons who perform and immitate her over-the-top style and the outfits that accentuate her largesse. She said that she has strong opinions on this but that she learned a long time ago to stay out of politics because she is an entertainer.

    Again, the biggest problem with the law is the sweepingly vague language of it (and this is why the federal judge put a hold on it).

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    At least from one source, the reason female impersonators wanted to perform in front of children was financial. The pandemic had locked down the normal venues. One performer said children needed comfort during those early days and so, the library performances began. This led to people objecting to these performances. So perhaps we have been able to answer @dneal's question, they needed the money. Nothing wrong with making money of course. Nothing wrong with comforting children.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Ted, you have a problem with open discussions. You either disparage other's views or you attempt to control the narratives. There is nothing biased about the question except that it does not flow in the path you want it to flow.
    Spot on Chuck!
    You may have been "woke" for some time now but, apparently, you have finally awoken, so to speak!

    And, if I may, one additional truism:
    Given extremely well documented, irrefutable evidence (or data) which does not fit into his personal fantasy world or warped sense of beliefs, TSherbs will either ignore or fail to acknowledge it.
    You overuse the concept of "woke", @724Seney. Nothing in the way I approach a topic has changed at all. I don't fit into your narrative anymore that I do Ted's.

    Female impersonators are people that deserve to be loved, respected, and held with dignity as with any human born or unborn, young or aged. Just because I do not think they should have unfettered performance freedom doesn't mean they are any less worthy of love.

    From Heather Cox Richardson today,
    "The principles of liberal democracy made nineteenth-century writer Harriet Beecher Stowe turn her grief for her dead eighteen-month-old son into the best-selling novel Uncle Tom’s Cabin, which showed why no mother’s child should be sold away from her. It made Rose Herera sue her former enslaver for custody of her own children after the Civil War. It made Julia Ward Howe demand the right to vote so her abusive husband could not control her life any longer.

    It made Black mathematician and naturalist Benjamin Banneker call out Thomas Jefferson for praising liberty while denying it to Black Americans; Sitting Bull defend the right of the Lakota to practice their own new religion, even though he did not believe in it; Saum Song Bo tell The New York Sun he was insulted by their request for money to build a pedestal for the Statue of Liberty when, three years before, the country had excluded people like him; Dr. Héctor García realize that Mexican Americans needed to be able to vote in order to protect themselves; Edward Roberts claim the right to get an education despite his physical paralysis; drag king Stormé DeLarverie throw the first punch at the Stonewall riot that jump-started the gay rights movement."
    Last edited by Chuck Naill; April 2nd, 2023 at 07:04 AM.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Ted, you have a problem with open discussions. You either disparage other's views or you attempt to control the narratives. There is nothing biased about the question except that it does not flow in the path you want it to flow.
    And he doesn’t understand why there isn’t any discussion here…
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Ted, you have a problem with open discussions. You either disparage other's views or you attempt to control the narratives. There is nothing biased about the question except that it does not flow in the path you want it to flow.
    Spot on Chuck!
    You may have been "woke" for some time now but, apparently, you have finally awoken, so to speak!

    And, if I may, one additional truism:
    Given extremely well documented, irrefutable evidence (or data) which does not fit into his personal fantasy world or warped sense of beliefs, TSherbs will either ignore or fail to acknowledge it.
    You overuse the concept of "woke", @724Seney. Nothing in the way I approach a topic has changed at all. I don't fit into your narrative anymore that I do Ted's.

    Female impersonators are people that deserve to be loved, respected, and held with dignity as with any human born or unborn, young or aged. Just because I do not think they should have unfettered performance freedom doesn't mean they are any less worthy of love.
    1) Why do you keep referring to these persons as "female impersonators"? Do you mean to single out only the biological males who read to children in the clothing of the other gender? I keep asking you this.


    2) And, for the record, no one has "unfettered performance freedom." That is a strawman.
    Last edited by TSherbs; April 2nd, 2023 at 10:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Gender and the law

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Nothing in the way I approach a topic has changed at all. I don't fit into your narrative anymore that I do Ted's. "
    Candy/Chuck:
    As much as you like everything to be all about "you," my comments were about TSherbs.
    Sorry!

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