Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 61 to 80 of 80

Thread: Let's make America Grate Again.

  1. #61
    FP Enthusiast Emeritus mhosea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Boston, Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,521
    Thanks
    401
    Thanked 1,715 Times in 738 Posts
    Rep Power
    7

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by myu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    What does that mean?
    It's it obvious?

    Senate won't have a complicit, cooperative Congress in which to perpetuate the corrupt narratives.
    No, indeed. What I was really asking was whether that female character, whom I do not recognize, carries along with her some redeeming connotations from a role in a work of fiction, something that might help me to interpret her threat of violence as anything more nuanced. Not being familiar with that character, I took you to be suggesting that the Senate will have a disruptive, violent, and possibly sociopathic Congress to deal with.
    --
    Mike

  2. #62
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    99
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 36 Times in 24 Posts
    Rep Power
    1

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    Not being familiar with that character
    Maybe it's one of the Donald's working girls from Moscow???

  3. #63
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    99
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 36 Times in 24 Posts
    Rep Power
    1

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    There’s a sort of test for commitment to reasoned debate. Does the person make a good faith effort to characterize opposing viewpoints accurately
    ...No, that's not a "test" - it's mistaking your opinion for fact. A real test is objective, not subjective. All your statement shows is that you don't know the difference.

    no honest person interested in applying reason to find truths would see any point to arguing against a strawman
    Well, so much for Abraham Lincoln...

    nor would they stoop to the purely political tactic of appealing to emotion rather than reason.
    Reason and emotion aren't separate: to speak of appealing to reason instead of emotion is nonsensical. All human values are at bottom emotional, rationality's role is reconciling different values and seeing that they are achieved.

    (I have no idea what side of this debate you are on, btw.)

  4. #64
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    99
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 36 Times in 24 Posts
    Rep Power
    1

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by myu View Post

    Trump wouldn't know good diplomacy if it bit him on the ass. He comes from the negotiation school of intimidation for business financial dealings.
    Actually, as a businessman he'd pretty lousy. A certain sort of person - the type of people who are fodder to multilevel marketing companies - think he's successful because he'd rich and plays a big shot on a "reality" TV show. But he inherited his money, has repeatedly wobbled on the edge of bankruptcy, and has done pretty poorly at making more money, eg

    https://www.ajc.com/blog/kyle-wingfi...vUTnaYoiatDtN/

    Trump has underperformed the real estate market by approximately $13.2 billion, or 57%,' since 1976, says John Griffin, a finance professor at the University of Texas, who compared Trump's stated net worth with four decades of returns on the FTSE NAREIT All Equity Index."
    That's right: Griffin is making the case that, had Trump in 1976 simply invested his reported fortune at the time of "more than $200 million" in a real-estate index fund, he would have another $13.2 billion to his name. And that's after taking Trump's word that his net worth is $10 billion, about which observers such as Forbes magazine have their doubts.


    ..When your business skills are worse - a LOT worse - than relying on blind luck - which is what this means - you suck.

    But Trump's voters don't understand this, because they see him acting like he's successful on that show. Well, like the guy in the big hat said "If God did not want them to be sheared, he would not have made them sheep."




    Despite the USA being the strongest player on the board doesn't mean that it remains so if the other players band together.
    It isn't and never has been. Part of being a strong player is the willingness to take damage: the US has always rated very low - it's the equivalent of a big guy in high school who spends lots of time in martial arts classes but is scared to get into a real fight. If you're North Korea then you're much more scared of Russia or China. Another part of being a strong player is the ability to act freely in your best national interests. Again, the US government isn't - it's too constrained by special interests and a notably volatile and uninformed electorate.

  5. #65
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    99
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 36 Times in 24 Posts
    Rep Power
    1

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    ..And Trump's record in the casino business is even more hilariously awful (same link) -

    "For 10 years between 1995 and 2005, Donald Trump ran Trump Hotels & Casino Resorts -- and he did it so badly and incompetently that it collapsed into Chapter 11 bankruptcy. His stockholders were almost entirely wiped out, losing a staggering 89% of their money. The company actually lost money every single year. In total it racked up more than $600 million in net losses over that period.
    "Trump was chairman of the board throughout the entire time, and CEO as well for about half of it.

    "This is the sort of record usually associated with an Enron or a WorldCom or a Pets.com.

    "Meanwhile, over the same period, all his competitors were enjoying an enormous boom."

    Indeed, returns for Trump's casino competitors during that time ranged from 60 percent to 3,240 percent; a Dow Jones index of casino companies grew by 160 percent during that time, as Trump's holdings shrank by 89 percent.


    I honestly feel sorry for the average Trump voter. Yes, they're often at least mildly racist and generally not very bright, but that's much of the human race. And these people are often the losers who have been abused or neglected by both parties. That they're not bright enough to help themselves and have elected a sociopathic loser doesn't mean they actually deserve the suffering that he'll inflict on them.

    Of course, I feel even sorrier for all the smart, non-racist people who didn't vote for Muppetolini..

  6. #66
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    SFO USA
    Posts
    835
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 648 Times in 336 Posts
    Rep Power
    6

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    I’ve casually watched this thread. In an effort to comply I grated Asiago, Romano, and Cheddar this morning. This particular combination makes Great cheese toast.

  7. #67
    Senior Member FredRydr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Carlisle, Pennsylvania USA
    Posts
    2,124
    Thanks
    401
    Thanked 2,061 Times in 894 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.


  8. The Following User Says Thank You to FredRydr For This Useful Post:

    azkid (February 4th, 2019)

  9. #68
    Senior Member calamus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Redwoods Rainforest
    Posts
    435
    Thanks
    313
    Thanked 308 Times in 156 Posts
    Rep Power
    1

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    Mencken was an optimist. The White House has been occupied by a succession of fools and narcissistic morons for ages.
    Quid rides? Mutato nomine de te fabula narratur. — Horace
    (What are you laughing at? Just change the name and the joke’s on you.)

  10. #69
    Senior Member calamus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Redwoods Rainforest
    Posts
    435
    Thanks
    313
    Thanked 308 Times in 156 Posts
    Rep Power
    1

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    Quid rides? Mutato nomine de te fabula narratur. — Horace
    (What are you laughing at? Just change the name and the joke’s on you.)

  11. #70
    Senior Member SIR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    GB
    Posts
    1,380
    Thanks
    520
    Thanked 588 Times in 373 Posts
    Rep Power
    4

    Cool Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    Obama wasn't so bad, neither is Trump, and nor is Iran... perspective and interpretation --- and then, communication and negotiation;
    just think
    North Korea.

    People are people, we all have agendas and we ain't all that much different.

  12. #71
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Slovenia
    Posts
    238
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 96 Times in 57 Posts
    Rep Power
    3

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    What I don’t understand about american politics (experience with which is limited to online interactions only, though) is that everyone is so absolute. There’s not a single american I have ever talked to that has said “yeah trump did this and this right, but I disagree with this and this”.

    It’s either trump is literally hitler and obama was a saint of saints, or obama is literally satan, and trump is the savior of america. Neither of which is true.

    What brings this out in people? Such an irrational thought process is surely not human nature. Is it the two party system of US? I know it’s not two party system per se, but in practice it is.

  13. #72
    FP Enthusiast Emeritus mhosea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Boston, Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,521
    Thanks
    401
    Thanked 1,715 Times in 738 Posts
    Rep Power
    7

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilikenails View Post

    ...No, that's not a "test" - it's mistaking your opinion for fact. A real test is objective, not subjective. All your statement shows is that you don't know the difference.
    It was obviously my opinion rather than a fact, just as you have obviously stated your opinions, not facts.
    --
    Mike

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to mhosea For This Useful Post:

    dneal (February 6th, 2019)

  15. #73
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    25
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 17 Times in 11 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    What I don’t understand about american politics (experience with which is limited to online interactions only, though) is that everyone is so absolute. There’s not a single american I have ever talked to that has said “yeah trump did this and this right, but I disagree with this and this”.

    It’s either trump is literally hitler and obama was a saint of saints, or obama is literally satan, and trump is the savior of america. Neither of which is true.

    What brings this out in people? Such an irrational thought process is surely not human nature. Is it the two party system of US? I know it’s not two party system per se, but in practice it is.
    There are a large number of Americans who rationally like some of Trump, Obama's, Clinton, Reagan, and other Presidents decisions and dislike others for very good reasons. They just do not post on this thread :-)

  16. #74
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    524
    Thanks
    132
    Thanked 451 Times in 193 Posts
    Rep Power
    5

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    What I don’t understand about american politics (experience with which is limited to online interactions only, though) is that everyone is so absolute. There’s not a single american I have ever talked to that has said “yeah trump did this and this right, but I disagree with this and this”.

    It’s either trump is literally hitler and obama was a saint of saints, or obama is literally satan, and trump is the savior of america. Neither of which is true.

    What brings this out in people? Such an irrational thought process is surely not human nature. Is it the two party system of US? I know it’s not two party system per se, but in practice it is.
    I think it's a combination of things. We don't teach people to think critically, for starters. "People do a whole lot of feeling, and mistake it for thinking", to paraphrase Mark Twain.

    "Yellow Journalism" is cranked to 11. Some of it is obvious political agenda, some of it is desperation for readership/viewership/bottom line financials. Sensation sells.

    Some of it is getting used to the ability for millions of people to communicate near instantaneously. Twitter, facebook, forums, comment sections, etc... Who knew there were so many assholes with computers...

    There is the nature of the American political landscape. Democrats held power in the Congress roughly 60 years, until the 94 mid term elections. Both houses have been hotly contested since then.

    There are more factors, but these are key to inflaming emotions, doubling down on ideology, and increasing the partisanship of the American electorate.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to dneal For This Useful Post:

    mhosea (February 6th, 2019)

  18. #75
    Senior Member azkid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    754
    Thanks
    1,186
    Thanked 624 Times in 293 Posts
    Rep Power
    1

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    Definitely yes about critical thinking. Most people probably couldn't name let alone explain five cognitive biases or five logical fallacies.

    Online echo chambers haven't helped us understand other viewpoints.

    Clearly the tendency—and likely knowledge of how—to carry on a good faith debate is increasingly more rare.

    There's also the growing anti-intellectual movement and misunderstandings about how science actually works.

    Loud drum-beating on a small number of issues has made them so divisive and polarizing they can't even be brought up without risk of extreme, visceral, emotional reactions.

    Add to this, too many are apathetic or beaten down for various reasons to even want to try to engage in voting, the absolute bare minimum of our civic responsibility, much less being aware of what's going on in politics, or taking action to bring about change.

    So our public discourse is an absolute disaster and here we are as the influence of money increasingly robs "we the people" of our power and livelihood.

    And I have been guilty of much of this. And hope to reform my ways.
    Last edited by azkid; February 7th, 2019 at 01:27 PM.

  19. #76
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    524
    Thanks
    132
    Thanked 451 Times in 193 Posts
    Rep Power
    5

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    Definitely yes about critical thinking. Most people probably couldn't name let alone explain five cognitive biases or five logical fallacies.

    Online echo chambers haven't helped us understand other viewpoints.

    Clearly the tendency—and likely knowledge of how—to carry on a good faith debate is increasingly more rare.

    There's also the growing anti-intellectual movement and misunderstandings about how science actually works.

    Loud drum-beating on a small number of issues has made them so divisive and polarizing they can't even be brought up without risk of extreme, visceral, emotional reactions.

    Add to this, too many are apathetic or beaten down for various reasons to even want to try to engage in voting, the absolute bare minimum of our civic responsibility, much less being aware of what's going on in politics, or taking action to bring about change.

    So our public discourse is an absolute disaster and here we are as the influence of money increasingly robs "we the people" of our power and livelihood.

    And I have been guilty of much of this. And hope to reform my ways.
    The flip side (and maybe the self correction) is the interest in what's now labeled "the intellectual dark web". People are flocking to hear Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, etc... anything outside the current canon of approved ideas.

  20. #77
    Senior Member azkid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    754
    Thanks
    1,186
    Thanked 624 Times in 293 Posts
    Rep Power
    1

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    Haven't heard of those two in particular. Always good to be open to new ideas and theories and evaluate critically just like the old ones.

    A conversation online with someone who didn't believe in gravity or planetary bodies, and my reading of The Demon-Haunted World (Sagan) so far, have influenced my thinking lately.

  21. #78
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    524
    Thanks
    132
    Thanked 451 Times in 193 Posts
    Rep Power
    5

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    I'm surprised you haven't heard of Jordan Peterson.

    Look up "Rubin Report" on YouTube for some amazing interviews discussing contemporary topics with very bright people.

  22. #79
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    25
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 17 Times in 11 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    I'm surprised you haven't heard of Jordan Peterson.

    Look up "Rubin Report" on YouTube for some amazing interviews discussing contemporary topics with very bright people.
    +1, Jordan Peterson has an amazing intellect and backs up his ideas with facts rather than emotion. He is also courageous and loves to debate ideas and policy with the emotion driven, propaganda spewing, name calling, racist Left in open public forums. He has easily won every debate I have seen him engage in and there are many online. To me he is a modern Socrates.

  23. #80
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Slovenia
    Posts
    238
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 96 Times in 57 Posts
    Rep Power
    3

    Default Re: Let's make America Grate Again.

    I would also say that americans are in general much more passionate about politics, and passion usually results in less rational statements. Over here, the only thing people can come together on is that f politicians. I don’t think I’ve ever met a person passionate about one politician specifically.

    The turn out usually reflects that. For our last government election less than 30% showed up to vote, majority of which were pensioners I believe.

    Not that it matters anyway. Government is now governed by political parties people didn’t vote for anyway. We have 7 leftist political parties, one right, and one batshit insane nationalistic one (that usually gets a handful of votes only). The only right wing party was voted the most, but the 7 lefty parties agreed to block them from forming a majority, so they couldn’t form one. Thus, the 7 parties created a majority with their 3-5% of votes each. Needless to say, the government is a shitshow, because how could anyone expect 7 groups of people with different wants would ever be able to come together on anything.

    I’ll say I was happy that Trump was elected. Not because I care for him at all, but because he is a proof democracy is well alive in USA. Everyone and their dog said Hillary will win, she had full support of every media group known to man, and still lost. You guys don’t even know how great it is that who will win the election is not a given!

    Sincerely, from someone who was born in a country where presidents have won with more than 100% of votes before.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •