Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

[Jon Szanto]

I decided to start a new thread on the topic of the changing audiences for pens, pen collecting, pen use, and modes of communication. The subject came during part of another thread starting around here, and I felt it was a disservice to derail.

Farmboy and I have indeed discussed this, as you'll see. I wish more people on both sides of the issue could see this and weigh in, but we'll see. If anyone wants to come into the water, feel free. I have maximum respect for Farmboy, and look forward to those times at pen shows I can pull him away from a pile of 51 parts to bend his ear. I have learned a lot, and not simply about pens, believe me.

This first post springs off a bit of the end of that thread, with only a bit of editing to have it make sense.

I'd point out that most of the group of people that "know the most" have never participated in the FPN or here or any other on-line forum.

I know you well enough that I hardly need to point it out, but... These are changing times. The knowledge that these men and (scattered) women know relates almost exclusively to vintage pens and the vintage world. OTOH, there is a growing audience of people for whom the reannaissance of pens and pen use, and all the gaudy and wild new (and many poorly-made) pens has a great fascination. These people populate a big percentage of the online forums, they have their own (ahem) "body of experts", and that accounts for much of the traffic.

There is yet to exist one *new* online forum that successfully intermingles old and new. FPN may be the best at that, if only that some old people have hung over from earlier days.

You are of course correct in that I'm speaking mostly in reference to the vintage side of the pen sphere. BUT, I'm also including the repair, ephemera, use, etc in that lump. Specifically repair as that applies to new and old pens. There are few well known repair people that do post but the people I learned from don't and they are some of the best at what they do.

Then there is use...How many of the now defunct Master Penmen post regularly? How many absolutely abused flex nibs do you see? Ever see one of the old school nib guys speak on what a flex nib is? Yeah I know 'we' all warn against flexing a nib from 0.1 to 3.0 mm but it doesn't seem to matter.

A real problem is that even when one of the knowledgeable experts posts, their comments get dismissed. In part because they are not well known due to a minimal presence on-line. Most important thing to learn is how to know what you don't know and that won't happen on a forum board.

You are of course correct in that I'm speaking mostly in reference to the vintage side of the pen sphere. BUT, I'm also including the repair, ephemera, use, etc in that lump. Specifically repair as that applies to new and old pens. There are few well known repair people that do post but the people I learned from don't and they are some of the best at what they do.

Then there is use...How many of the now defunct Master Penmen post regularly? How many absolutely abused flex nibs do you see? Ever see one of the old school nib guys speak on what a flex nib is? Yeah I know 'we' all warn against flexing a nib from 0.1 to 3.0 mm but it doesn't seem to matter.

A real problem is that even when one of the knowledgeable experts posts, their comments get dismissed. In part because they are not well known due to a minimal presence on-line. Most important thing to learn is how to know what you don't know and that won't happen on a forum board.

I really couldn't agree more with all of this. That said, there is a changing world, and if valued members and people with a body of knowledge choose to not interact, there is a loss all around. I would like for more of the old guard to rub up against the enthusiasm of new players; I would like a new audience to have reason to believe they aren't simply looking at a bunch of grumpy old men. There really could be a win-win under the right circumstances.

We can't be naive, though. The elements such as 'knowledge gets dismissed' are widespread at the moment. I see it in my profession: when I was young, we massively valued the wisdom of players who had been on the concert stage for decades, eager to hear their thoughts on many matters; now, the young players simply circle-jerk all the conservatory rhetoric and focus minute excerpts of music, hoping for perfection (with true understanding never to be found). Try to impart some careful thoughts in that millieu? Not on your life.

So it isn't just a matter of the venue, but a societal change. The concept of "disruption", well-known to you in the Bay area, has a very big set of downsides.

And there really is a place for all of this electronical jabber, because there are an awful lot of people who simply can't travel to a pen show. I feel fortunate to have 2 fine shows in striking distance, and if you are somewhat of a casual pen person, traveling far distances to be in a room of strangers and odd pens is a tad daunting. Which is why I've always hoped for a little upside to all this typing.

We have indeed discussed this in person, in private email, and on the boards and I doubt we have come to any conclusion and we certainly have not solved any problems. Since others may not follow, I'll try to summarize 5 years worth in a few words. Essentially Jon and I have discussed the differences between the 'old guard' and the 'new kids' and why there are problems, perceived or real. Most of the discussion has played out on the various boards and social media, or has it?

With broad strokes we shall define 'old guard' as the collector crowd and the 'new kids' as the user crowd. Most collectors don't care much about inks or paper unless they have an unusual box or we are talking about letterhead or other ephemera. In general the 'new kids' like different kinds of papers, inks, colors, etc and they actually use the pens and don't treat them as museum pieces. Many collectors would purchase a new stickered 90 year old pen to upgrade the one they already have and many users would purchase the same pen, rip off the sticker and ink it. To each his own.

Many threads here and on FPN can be found where those new to FPN have gone to an event, usually a pen show, and felt unwelcome. This usually results in what amounts to name calling and dismissing the 'old guard' as a bunch of rude mean old men (and sometimes women) that don't want the users around. I firmly believe this is not true in 95% of the cases but we generally only hear one side of the story. Specifically we hear the side posted on line, Jon's electronical jabber as it were. There is typically no other side and for the few 'old guard' brave enough to offer an opinion they are quickly met with enough snark and expertise to go away.

Now for the 'or has it?' question. Just today it struck me that the story is not complete and there is another side of the coin. Jon and I spent 5 days at a pen show. Most (as in 99.5+%) of the on-line community did not spend any time at a pen show in the last week. As you might guess, I spent most of my time with the 'old guard'. My friends from being in the hobby for most of my life. Friends I see once or twice a year and friends I may chat on the phone with a few times more. Anyone want to guess the subject of many conversations at pen shows over the last few years? Yes, the 'old guard' discusses the 'new kids' at shows. Discussions around inking NOS 75 year old pens, repairs that cost to much, not sharing historical documents, etc. I particularly liked a term for the user crowd when it intersected with flex pens...pen abusers.

I didn't connect it until Jon's post above but even Jon and I have had the in person discussion, most of which never makes in on line. I doubt Jon or I will change more than a few people's minds. I do remember when Jon showed up on the scene and slowly integrated into the 'old guard' from the 'new kids' Perhaps easier for Jon with his graying hair and bow tie but integration happened. A few span both worlds, what we need is more spanning and less spamming. Not to be all doom and gloom, there is a group of people I know working on this very problem.

Jon, you are up. I need to get some work done.

So, that's where we stand at the moment. That subtle dig of get some work done implies that I am a musician who doesn't ever do anything, in spite of the multitasking I am doing at the moment. But I'll be back with some more thoughts in a bit.

Although I'm a bit pissed off at that crack about the "graying hair".

Jon (l) and Farmboy (r) at the 2016 SF Pen Show

[Jon Szanto]

That's a very interesting post, but it does not totally jibe with what I've heard about pen shows. Bear in mind that for obvious reasons I have never been to a show and likely never will. In reading many show reports it is notable that there are plenty of 'stations' where pens can be inked and tried out, where different inks and papers can be sampled, where there are vintage pens and modern pens shoulder to shoulder, where there are both new users and calligraphers.

To suggest that a pen show is simply full of "old guard" collectors does not sound all that accurate. yes, the online community is large and the number of people (of all persuasions) who go to shows is comparatively small, but that only means that your estimated percentages are skewed. Looking at the average crowd attending on the 'public' day of a show, what proportion are collectors, users, both or neither?

The online community is vocal online. Less so elsewhere. And vice versa. At a show is there really a drawing of lines?

Right off the bat, that is one of the issues: what you hear online. Admittedly having never been to a show, and getting info only online, you are at the mercy (so to speak) of the people who *will* take the time to post online. This - unsurprisingly - tends to be mostly newer (younger) users, and they skew the way they skew. Same, for the most part, with bloggers. On the two main forums I frequent, the "show threads" have mostly been about a few shows, certainly not representative of them all, and focus a lot on the shows that are either the largest or the most involved in embracing change.

The business about inks and testing and whatnot is a quite new phenomenon, has not spread to every show (AFAIK) and is a response to changes in attendees and their interests. But even if this goes back only a couple of years, some of the vintage pen dealers have been attending shows, selling, buying and trading for 20-25 years. They are very much seeing a change in the demographics of pen show attendence. And while I would never say it is "full of old guard people", I would have you stroll the aisle of the LA Pen Show as I did for the last 4 or so days and do your own assessment. Yes, by all means, there are a number of vendors of new pens and paraphanalia mixed in there, but I really wouldn't be surprised if percentage of table space bought was, at least 60-70% old pens. It still skews that way, and may for a while, if only because vendors selling new goods are *still* at the mercy of people looking at a pen and then doing an online search and buying it cheaper.

Anyway, there is more to meets the eye than the reports that come online. If there wasn't, there wouldn't be a need for this discussion.

[jar]

LOL

I'm not at all sure whether I am part of some old guard or just old, have not attended a fountain pen show in decades, have a very high confidence limit that should I show up at some venue no one would know me.

But I have been involved in several different yet similar environments.

For a long time I wrote about, reviewed and put on wine tastings.

For a long time I was active in the Alfa Owners circle and sports cars in general.

For a long time I worked for a guy whose passion was California Custom Hot Rods and had a co-worker who was into US made Big Bore Heavy Metal.

For a long time I was involved in the world of Bladesmiths and custom knives.

For a long time I wrote and reviewed coffees and coffee makers.

In each case there was an Old Guard and the New Guys and things were pretty much sammo sammo.

In each case the Old Guard and the New Guys ended up at the bar in the evening.

In each case Old Guard and New Guys found stuff they could talk about as well as stuff they could argue passionately about.

In each case the Old Guard and the New Guys often ended up say, "What's that one? Tell me about it? Can I try it?"

Only seldom did it end involving pink slips.

[Jon Szanto]

In each case there was an Old Guard and the New Guys and things were pretty much sammo sammo.

In each case the Old Guard and the New Guys ended up at the bar in the evening.

In each case Old Guard and New Guys found stuff they could talk about as well as stuff they could argue passionately about.

In each case the Old Guard and the New Guys often ended up say, "What's that one? Tell me about it? Can I try it?"

Only seldom did it end involving pink slips.

If this was the case the issue wouldn't be in front of us. Believe me, I don't wish it, and I've actively tried to foster improvement. It is undeniable, but maybe only so if you are actually there, that there is friction. Or, at the very least, not nearly as optimal and positive a mix as one would like. Your examples are in the past, and while I don't discount them in the least, there are societal changes that are affecting the situation we describe above. It *is* a new millenium, and there are aspects that are not "same old".

[Chrissy]

OK for those of us who don't know: Who's who in the photograph? I can't see any "graying hair" or bow ties.

[Jon Szanto]

OK for those of us who don't know: Who's who in the photograph? I can't see any "graying hair" or bow ties.

I'm on the left in the dark green sweater, under a light that makes my hair look like a bad Boca Raton dye job. The other guy is Farmboy. Here's a bowtie shot from Friday at the LA Pen Show; I have a book of used pen prices to assist in my... 'negotiations':

[Empty_of_Clouds]

That's a very interesting post, but it does not totally jibe with what I've heard about pen shows. Bear in mind that for obvious reasons I have never been to a show and likely never will. In reading many show reports it is notable that there are plenty of 'stations' where pens can be inked and tried out, where different inks and papers can be sampled, where there are vintage pens and modern pens shoulder to shoulder, where there are both new users and calligraphers.

To suggest that a pen show is simply full of "old guard" collectors does not sound all that accurate. yes, the online community is large and the number of people (of all persuasions) who go to shows is comparatively small, but that only means that your estimated percentages are skewed. Looking at the average crowd attending on the 'public' day of a show, what proportion are collectors, users, both or neither?

The online community is vocal online. Less so elsewhere. And vice versa. At a show is there really a drawing of lines?

Right off the bat, that is one of the issues: what you hear online. Admittedly having never been to a show, and getting info only online, you are at the mercy (so to speak) of the people who *will* take the time to post online. This - unsurprisingly - tends to be mostly newer (younger) users, and they skew the way they skew. Same, for the most part, with bloggers. On the two main forums I frequent, the "show threads" have mostly been about a few shows, certainly not representative of them all, and focus a lot on the shows that are either the largest or the most involved in embracing change.

The business about inks and testing and whatnot is a quite new phenomenon, has not spread to every show (AFAIK) and is a response to changes in attendees and their interests. But even if this goes back only a couple of years, some of the vintage pen dealers have been attending shows, selling, buying and trading for 20-25 years. They are very much seeing a change in the demographics of pen show attendence. And while I would never say it is "full of old guard people", I would have you stroll the aisle of the LA Pen Show as I did for the last 4 or so days and do your own assessment. Yes, by all means, there are a number of vendors of new pens and paraphanalia mixed in there, but I really wouldn't be surprised if percentage of table space bought was, at least 60-70% old pens. It still skews that way, and may for a while, if only because vendors selling new goods are *still* at the mercy of people looking at a pen and then doing an online search and buying it cheaper.

Anyway, there is more to meets the eye than the reports that come online. If there wasn't, there wouldn't be a need for this discussion.

Of course, and this is why I posted my comment. To be clear though, most of the reports I have read come from reputable sources. Whether those sources are strictly collectors, users or whatever, is hard for me to discern. And yet that is all I will ever really have, the online reports. On a broader note, I have simply no idea of how many significant shows are run each year. I have only heard of about 4 or 5. As I am a user (fends off flung produce) and only seriously so in the last couple or three years, I am unaware of the shape of shows past. Again, in the absence of other sources what options do I have but to accept the online ramblings of the nouveau plume set?

The over-riding impression I get, as far removed from the scene as to have no discernible opportunity, is that the collectors (the 'old guard') go to the shows early and hoover up as much of the good stuff as they can. So when a person like Altec Green (who I am sure is really a nice guy) posts a report it comes across as "it's a great show, and look at the tens of thousands of dollar's worth of pens I bought" kind of thing and here's my two fingers for your examination. Sorry, but it does. However, my personal misfortune of location only magnifies what may be a minor irritation to someone in a more proximal place.

Don't get me wrong, I like the reports for the pictures. Yet that is all I can take away from them. They do nothing to encourage my attendance, and even less (I know, hard to imagine) to help me make any sort of connection with people who may (and very kindly too) be prepared to act as an agent on my behalf. Again though, this may be person-specific, seeing as most people here think I'm a major ass.


I have no real beef with collectors, and I appreciate that once a collection goes beyond a certain size it is practically impossible to use all the pens anyway. It's just that in my world the distinction is this: collectors are preservers, users are creators. I believe the second group to be more valuable to human growth than the first. That is just my personal opinion and does not affect whether I like someone or not.

[brunico]

I don't recognise any of this, but then again I don't hang around pen shows or repair or collector subforums. From my vantage point, the problem I see is idiotic, unfriendly or unhelpful advice, which can come equally from dyed-in-the-wool and wet-behind-the-ears.

This is loudest when people who've been around and think they know it all give advice that's echoed unthinkingly by newer people who are eager to learn and pass on any pearls of wisdom, even if they're wrong in some or all contexts. At its worst, it results in some poor first-time poster being told by all and sundry that they can't write back to their grandma to thank her for their first fountain pen until they've given it a good seeing-to with a 10x loupe, ammonia and an ear syringe, and anyway it's not a proper fountain pen because it uses a cartridge and doesn't have a made-up degree of flex.

Still, I'm flattered to be called a new kid, despite having used fountain pens for nearly forty years.

[Dreck]

OK for those of us who don't know: Who's who in the photograph? I can't see any "graying hair" or bow ties.

I'm on the left in the dark green sweater, under a light that makes my hair look like a bad Boca Raton dye job. The other guy is Farmboy. Here's a bowtie shot from Friday at the LA Pen Show; I have a book of used pen prices to assist in my... 'negotiations':

That's a nice bow tie, Jon!

[Jon Szanto]

I don't recognise any of this, but then again I don't hang around pen shows or repair or collector subforums. From my vantage point, the problem I see is idiotic, unfriendly or unhelpful advice, which can come equally from dyed-in-the-wool and wet-behind-the-ears.

This is loudest when people who've been around and think they know it all give advice that's echoed unthinkingly by newer people who are eager to learn and pass on any pearls of wisdom, even if they're wrong in some or all contexts. At its worst, it results in some poor first-time poster being told by all and sundry that they can't write back to their grandma to thank her for their first fountain pen until they've given it a good seeing-to with a 10x loupe, ammonia and an ear syringe, and anyway it's not a proper fountain pen because it uses a cartridge and doesn't have a made-up degree of flex.

In all fairness, then, you aren't in the midst of the actual situation we are addressing. As to the other anecdotal material about how a new user might be treated by an experienced one, that is something that is never excuseable, and while it happens, there are also endless examples I could cite where someone with far more time behind the nib had been patient and generous with me with their knowledge.

[Marsilius]

This thread reminds me of dynamics at national conferences of academic societies, where to also takes time to get to know people. The difference there is that, unlike the fountain pen shows, which I love (and missed due to a weekend of rehearsals, alas), getting to know people can be crucial to a career. I like pen shows, and enjoy meeting people, but doubt I will ever pass out of new kid status, except maybe to some of the folks in Monrovia on a Saturday here and there at the Fountain Pen Shop.
(Jon is lucky I only see him here online, or I might have asked him to pick up two bottles of this ink and a #6 nib of that, and maybe a special tool.)

[Jon Szanto]

Don't get me wrong, I like the reports for the pictures. Yet that is all I can take away from them. They do nothing to encourage my attendance, and even less (I know, hard to imagine) to help me make any sort of connection with people who may (and very kindly too) be prepared to act as an agent on my behalf. Again though, this may be person-specific, seeing as most people here think I'm a major ass.

Here is the post I did on the SF Show in August of last year. Honestly, does that paint the same picture that you are talking about? Because, honestly, while there may be issues - which is the whole point of this thread - pen shows on the whole are an incredibly positive experience, and if that doesn't come through, people's reportage is just failing.

Beyond that, it may very well be something nearly impossible to describe and quantify, but it won't stop me from trying. There are way too many good people involved, and way too much fun to have. It is NOT, I assert, about the raw avarice of pen gathering: I had the smallest show since I started going, with only 2 inks, one small pen, and a little journal, and I still had a great time.

I even tried to help out a couple of people who live far away. Go figure.

[Jon Szanto]

(Jon is lucky I only see him here online, or I might have asked him to pick up two bottles of this ink and a #6 nib of that, and maybe a special tool.)

Why not - I did it for a couple other people!

[brunico]

In all fairness, then, you aren't in the midst of the actual situation we are addressing.

I was under no illusion that I am. But there may be some parallels in how people listen to and deal with others, regardless of where. Feel free to write this off as an idiotic or unhelpful comment, but it wasn't intended to be unfriendly...

[gbryal]

There's a lot of talking about this problem without identifying it. I am pretty sure I am not the audience for this, but what's the issue? Something about pen shows and vintage traders vs. people who are enthusiasts that buy new pens and occasional old pens and write things about both that are occasionally wrong? And then something about the vintage set making it worse by not engaging with the people they are complaining about, so they will never know anything?

As an aside how long do you have to deal with pens before you understand your Lamy Safari completely? It's probably not necessary to have decades of training to have a youtube channel or a blog. I watch these all the time, and it seems like they are more helpful than not. It's fine to be an amateur (one who loves to do something) in pens just as it is in music.

[Marsilius]

(Jon is lucky I only see him here online, or I might have asked him to pick up two bottles of this ink and a #6 nib of that, and maybe a special tool.)

Why not - I did it for a couple other people!

If I don't make it next year, I will have a bottle of good scotch waiting for you in my little suburb and see if I can tempt you to bring some ink . . .

[Jon Szanto]

But there may be some parallels in how people listen to and deal with others, regardless of where. Feel free to write this off as an idiotic or unhelpful comment, but it wasn't intended to be unfriendly...

I am very certain that it was my framing of a response that gave the wrong impression, as you did not come off unfriendly, and certainly not idiotic. I'm trying to find the best way to describe the issues at hand, when they are elements that have been developing over a few years, in various manner, and starting to come to the surface. If nothing else, this discussion - including your comment - are helping me to refine the dialogue in further writing.

There's a lot of talking about this problem without identifying it.

See my above response. I will need to do better.

As an aside how long do you have to deal with pens before you understand your Lamy Safari completely? It's probably not necessary to have decades of training to have a youtube channel or a blog. I watch these all the time, and it seems like they are more helpful than not. It's fine to be an amateur (one who loves to do something) in pens just as it is in music.

In all honesty, I'm not certain how to reply or to what that pertains. I go out of my way to help new players, and spend a lot of time in their prime arena, reddit. I heartily endorse casual and amateur enjoyment of pens, etc - there is precisely zero need for each person to become an avid vintage pen collector or something.

[gbryal]

In all honesty, I'm not certain how to reply or to what that pertains. I go out of my way to help new players, and spend a lot of time in their prime arena, reddit. I heartily endorse casual and amateur enjoyment of pens, etc - there is precisely zero need for each person to become an avid vintage pen collector or something.

I think the best of you, and wasn't digging at you.

My perception is that the old school feels like the new knows nothing and spout nothing but disinformation, and I guess my aside was partially a response to that and an acknowledgement that knowledge sharing among amateur enthusiasts is valuable too.

But I am serious about not understanding the issue, so it probably makes sense that my response is a non-sequitur.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Don't get me wrong, I like the reports for the pictures. Yet that is all I can take away from them. They do nothing to encourage my attendance, and even less (I know, hard to imagine) to help me make any sort of connection with people who may (and very kindly too) be prepared to act as an agent on my behalf. Again though, this may be person-specific, seeing as most people here think I'm a major ass.

Here is the post I did on the SF Show in August of last year. Honestly, does that paint the same picture that you are talking about? Because, honestly, while there may be issues - which is the whole point of this thread - pen shows on the whole are an incredibly positive experience, and if that doesn't come through, people's reportage is just failing.

Beyond that, it may very well be something nearly impossible to describe and quantify, but it won't stop me from trying. There are way too many good people involved, and way too much fun to have. It is NOT, I assert, about the raw avarice of pen gathering: I had the smallest show since I started going, with only 2 inks, one small pen, and a little journal, and I still had a great time.

I even tried to help out a couple of people who live far away. Go figure.

I understand this, and please don't think I am having a go at you or anybody else specifically. In all reports there are those where I feel the enthusiasm of the erm enthusiast shines (like yours) and there are those that don't. There aren't enough reports to say whether one side is prevalent. For myself, being far overseas tends to lead one to focus a little more on the pathways rather than looking at the trees, if you see what I mean. This is why I am far more interested in the human stories (again you are good at this) than those that simply state how much a C-worder paid for a suitcase full of unobtainables.

Bridging the gap between collectors and users really shouldn't be that hard. After all, in general each group is looking for different things. A collector, especially a big one, is not going to be all that motivated to outbid me on a bog-standard black Parker 51 aerometric in user-grade condition. Similarly, financial equality aside, most users don't really want to buy that Montegrappa Sylvester Stallone thing, but it may appeal to a completionist.

There doesn't have to be this animosity between the groups, but at the same time there ought to be a willingness to share from the collectors, and a willingness to listen on the part of the users. (I know, bit rich coming from me, but there it is)

[Woody]

OK for those of us who don't know: Who's who in the photograph? I can't see any "graying hair" or bow ties.

I'm on the left in the dark green sweater, under a light that makes my hair look like a bad Boca Raton dye job. The other guy is Farmboy. Here's a bowtie shot from Friday at the LA Pen Show; I have a book of used pen prices to assist in my... 'negotiations':

Well that picture deserves a bump. Nice to meet you Jon. You're a little older than your avatar, but appreciate all you do for our community. With some luck perhaps I'll meet you at a show someday. I'm from the Province of Canada that most can't pronounce. Saskatchewan.