Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

[penwash]

As someone who has gone to many shows, I've notice a difference between collectors and users. Though no one has ever been rude to me, I've notice some of the older men are not interested in sharing their passion for vintage pens.

In my experience, every vintage pen collectors that I talked to are eager to share their passion. Of course there are shy ones too, some of the most knowledgeable collectors are studious intellectual -type who probably will never become the live of a party. But once you've established a shared interest, the depth of their knowledge is mind-boggling and they *are* sharing.

The hobby is developing a big branch that varies from the "old timers". Best part of this....the hobby continues to live and thrive for the next generation to grab onto.

Can we integrate? Not sure. Each facet is so different.

I don't think the groups should integrate, rather, feel a mutual respect and a sense of dependence on each other.

Truthfully, if a Pen Show only has modern pens and inks and paper and diary planner, with zero vintage pens, I will be much less inclined to visit, let alone be involved. The reverse is true, if the only people in the Pen Show are hardened collectors that never ink their pens, I'll also feel that something big is missing.

This is the crux of the issue, folks. The two identified groups (in an ideal situation) should feel that they need each other, then the whole community becomes a village where people refer visitors and newcomers to each other, while celebrating the difference.

The way it is right now, I sense the "leery eyeing" across the aisle. If I'm wrong, then I'm glad that I am.

[Crazyorange]

I don't think the groups should integrate, rather, feel a mutual respect and a sense of dependence on each other.

Truthfully, if a Pen Show only has modern pens and inks and paper and diary planner, with zero vintage pens, I will be much less inclined to visit, let alone be involved. The reverse is true, if the only people in the Pen Show are hardened collectors that never ink their pens, I'll also feel that something big is missing.

This is the crux of the issue, folks. The two identified groups (in an ideal situation) should feel that they need each other, then the whole community becomes a village where people refer visitors and newcomers to each other, while celebrating the difference.

The way it is right now, I sense the "leery eyeing" across the aisle. If I'm wrong, then I'm glad that I am.

Well said.

How do we build the bridge?

[jar]

I don't think the groups should integrate, rather, feel a mutual respect and a sense of dependence on each other.

Truthfully, if a Pen Show only has modern pens and inks and paper and diary planner, with zero vintage pens, I will be much less inclined to visit, let alone be involved. The reverse is true, if the only people in the Pen Show are hardened collectors that never ink their pens, I'll also feel that something big is missing.

This is the crux of the issue, folks. The two identified groups (in an ideal situation) should feel that they need each other, then the whole community becomes a village where people refer visitors and newcomers to each other, while celebrating the difference.

The way it is right now, I sense the "leery eyeing" across the aisle. If I'm wrong, then I'm glad that I am.

Well said.

How do we build the bridge?

We don't. Individuals can; individuals can understand that there is no need for a bridge, that there will be great folk and not so great folk and folk that are great most days but not this day. You can have jam today and jam yesterday but never jam today.

None of use can make changes in anyone but ourselves.

[Sailor Kenshin]

If nothing else, this thread has helped me to realize I am merely a user, not a collecter.

Hoarder, maybe.

[ethernautrix]

Jon, as you make clear that the discussion is important to you and to the "pen community" in general, what do you perceive as the danger in not having this discussion?

I'm also not very clear on what is at the nut of "the discussion." That older, more experienced pen enthusiasts and younger, less experienced pen enthusiasts... don't overlap enough? And the potential consequences are...?

If not clear, I'm not being argumentative; I'm trying to understand the problem.

There isn't any danger, other than an already-present decay of legacy and understanding. I think David Nishimura's (of vintagepens.com) wonderful series of blog entries on this exact subject should be part of this discussion (see http://vintagepensblog.blogspot.com/...-users-vs.html) I have only a few personal experiences with this phenomenon which in one word I'll call factionalism, but it seems to me it is more of a problem of opinions rather than relationships themselves--the "old-timers (Nishimura distinguishes these traders as "first generation collectors") I've met and talked with have been friendly, generous and welcoming to me personally, but hold varying degrees of skepticism, criticism and disinterest in the current forms of "user" hobbying--colorful inks with intriguing properties, new pen companies, paper products etc. In my conversations with Brad Torelli, a member of the "first generation" who was at the early pen shows and making pens nearly thirty years ago, I have started to understand this aversion--it's a sense that vintage pens are not being fully appreciated, their brilliance not fully understood by new generations. Jon is right that misunderstandings exist and probably limit people's full enjoyment on both sides, but how to "bridge the gap" is not clear to me. Of course, it's important to point out the lack of any real binary; the murkiness of cultural analysis couldn't be more present than in this case.

Thanks for the link. I haven't read it yet, but I certainly will.

I just met David at the Madrid Pen Show in November -- lovely man, had a nice conversation with him.

Cliques are inescapable, I'm afraid -- everywhere, anywhere. Every job I've had, no matter the size of the company (from national to small, local), I've observed cliques-formation. So I've hung out with the "Old Guard" in LA and SF and the "Newbies/Users" -- eh, I started Pen Posse as a newcomer to even the idea of pen community (from my perspective), but I'd been using fpens for a thousand years already, and I've attended pen shows in LA, SF, Atlanta, Poland, and Madrid, with plans to attend other locations. I've met folks with incredibly vast pen collections and folks with only a few, and I'm not sure why there's a PROBLEM. Evolution? From what to what?

What exactly is at stake? I don't get it.

[ethernautrix]

Jon, as you make clear that the discussion is important to you and to the "pen community" in general, what do you perceive as the danger in not having this discussion?

I'm also not very clear on what is at the nut of "the discussion." That older, more experienced pen enthusiasts and younger, less experienced pen enthusiasts... don't overlap enough? And the potential consequences are...?

If not clear, I'm not being argumentative; I'm trying to understand the problem.

I am not answering for Jon. But here's how I see it.

Without these "discussions" the two groups of fountain pen users (ie. present and next generations) are in danger of complete alienation toward each other (that's typically what will happen when two groups perceived each other with leery eyes due to not enough understanding and empathy).

If that were to happen, how then the decades of accumulated wealth of knowledge about fountain pen history can be transferred from the current holder to the next generation?

If the loss of knowledge -- within the context of fountain pens -- is not perceived as a danger (or at the least a very sad outcome) then yes, there is not a single issue, and we should continue our own merry way and just let things fall where they may.

By the way, I see no need nor thrust in this "discussions" to dictate how one should be relating to a fountain pen. Users would continue to be users, and collectors would be collectors, and those who are "smart enough" (said with a smile ) will continue to be both users and collectors. There is indeed enough space for both types and more. The only question here is whether respect and collaboration is proactively fostered, or not.

Well, I'll say here that I've heard that David (referenced above) made available supremely helpful information about vintage pens -- that were disappeared. I don't remember the details, so I'm not sure if he took them offline or what. But he was (and remains, as far as I know) an amazing resource for information about vintage fpens.

Otherwise, I really don't understand the consternation. Is there a proper way to enjoy writing with fountain pens? Or collecting them?

[ethernautrix]

I'm not sure it is interesting to say, but I've been to a few pen shows, and they weren't a social events for me. I didn't meet up with old friends or make new ones. I did look for opportunities to socialize, but I guess I wasn't focused enough on that, or perhaps my INTP-ness impinged. Basically I shopped for pens. I went to a gun show once and had exactly the same experience (though I didn't buy any guns that day, just a nice hand-made leather belt ).

A pen show doesn't have to be a social event. A pen show, in fact, probably is more a market, a place for people who are interested in writing with or collecting fountain pens to enlarge their enjoyment of same. For me, I enjoy the social aspect more but appreciate the opportunity to test myself about what I apparently believe is ENOUGH fpens.

The social part is probably more for the vendors who have become friends from attending the same shows several times a year for a long time. It's inevitable.

[ethernautrix]

I'm not sure it is interesting to say, but I've been to a few pen shows, and they weren't a social events for me. I didn't meet up with old friends or make new ones. I did look for opportunities to socialize, but I guess I wasn't focused enough on that, or perhaps my INTP-ness impinged. Basically I shopped for pens. I went to a gun show once and had exactly the same experience (though I didn't buy any guns that day, just a nice hand-made leather belt ).

I've been to the LA Pen Show for a few years running now but mostly on the Sunday public day. Twice I was able to make it to some of the Saturday seminars, which were very informative. (Unfortunately, I had other obligations this past Saturday.). I've found that most folks are very friendly and willing to chat but I'm painfully shy. It's extremely hard for me to start a conversation. I will pass by tables and be interested in knowing more about a couple of pens that are clearly for sale or trade but, truthfully, I know that I am not going to purchase. If there's no price tag on the pen, it feels like the person running the table has put the onus on me, the painfully shy window shopper, to open up the conversation and that idea crashes like a lead balloon. I've been lucky enough to learn some great stuff at a couple of tables. In all cases, the person behind the table has started the conversation. My current opinion is that a price tag acts a conversation starter -- even if the tag says something like "TBD". I've read in some places that the presence of a price tag is one indicator of a divide between the "new guard" and the "old guard" although it's probably more accurate to separate the groups as "style 1" and "style 2".

A related question for folks behind the tables: how irritating is it to deal with window shoppers? I know that you want to close deals but I don't have nearly enough money to purchase everything that catches my eye! Is it really that appealing for a dealer to chat about 1 pen to someone who clearly isn't going to pull the trigger when that dealer has hundreds of pens on display?

Next year, I hope to be more social at the LA Pen Show but it's going to require Herculean effort on my part. Better start gearing up now, I think! :-)

Well, the next time I'm at the LA Pen Show (have no idea when that might be), you just introduce yourself to me, and I will grab your arm (or just walk you around), and you can meet Ricky (the Pen Show Sherpa -- he knows where everything is) and everyone else I know. Or you can tell me you don't want that, and I will respect it. But... you know... there are plenty of friendly pen people you could approach who would be more than happy to help you navigate all those tables and all those dealers.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

@kazoolaw: Smile = show your teeth. Stick two fingers up (it's an English thing) = here's my two fingers for your examination. That you associate the latter with proctology is rather disturbing, but I guess it's whatever floats yer boat.

I posted a sincere impression of show reports in general, and used a specific example to illustrate why I have that impression. The discussion is about perceptions. This was mine based on the online reports. You can disagree with it if you like, but you don't get to call it BS. Your post added precisely nothing to the discussion.

Anyway, I stand by my words. Collectors are preservers, and users are creators. Mostly. That's how I see it. And in the main, as said before, both groups are more than likely looking for different things. However, that in itself shouldn't preclude a dialogue between the two.

[kazoolaw]

Did you think we wouldn't notice that you said that you didn't call anyone out in particular, but you did, by name? And that your response ignores my point about personal attacks?

Be careful of the video linked below: you might be contradicted again, this time about references to two fingers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wQ6hrw-yLs

[PenPal]

As a newbie I find this thread very interesting and it has definitely given me a deeper understanding of the pen community. Personally I feel like this is an "issue" that is not specific to pens. Whenever a new generation starts to take over the previous one is rarely happy with the way those after them take up the reigns. I think it may be that people just enjoy things in a different way.

For me as new comer, i enjoy the experience of writing with the pens because I want to experience a piece of history by engaging with it, while it seems the older generation want to experience history by preserving and observing it for nastalgia. I would argue that the new users, which I would consider myself one of, don't get as much out of just collecting them because it doesn't provide as rich of an experience since we never had the chance to use them before.

At the moment I would definitely consider myself a pen user more than a collector but since starting to use pens I am slowly forming a collection with that said I have found the older pens a much more enjoyable experience to use and would love the opportunity to gain some wisdom and knowledge about older pens from those who are more experienced. That's why I joined this forum in the first place! Unfortunately I don't have great access to pen shows or other events where I am able to meet those who may be collector's or "old guard" as it has been put. If I did I would most certainly take advantage of those opportunities. If anyone knows if anything in the Lansing, MI area please let me know. I'd love an opportunity to learn from those who love the history and value old pens, I feel like it makes the experience of writing with them even more enjoyable. Perhaps it's because I am a user (sounds like an addict, which I may be) but I feel like I need understand both the history of the pen and actually use it to really appreciate it for all it's goodness.

Not really sure if that aids the discussion at all but that's my thoughts.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Jon Szanto]

Damn eye is still giving a bit of uncomfort and sub-optimal use this morning, will hope for better later. In the meantime, let's all attempt to play well with each other. I'm not looking for attacks and counter-attacks, but simply sincere - if passionate at times - perspectives from around the subject.

I swear, I'll do my best to come back later with my thoughts on all the good commentary so far. Carry on.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Did you think we wouldn't notice that you said that you didn't call anyone out in particular, but you did, by name? And that your response ignores my point about personal attacks?

Be careful of the video linked below: you might be contradicted again, this time about references to two fingers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wQ6hrw-yLs

Funny video. I'm British, so I tend to use my own language the way I was brought up to use it. People from non-British countries may use it differently. My bad (as the 'muricans oft say), I forgot that this happens. Two nations divided and all that. Just so you know, when I say it's an English thing I am referring to the place/culture not the language. If you say it's an American thing I take that as being cultural too, not language, in the first instance.

As you seem not to understand what I was saying on a conceptual level, I was not calling that specific person out. I was using their report as an example of why I have my perception of pen shows. Why this person? Because they are conspicuous report writers AND big time purchasers. They were an example of convenience. As an example they are fit for my purposes. it is not a personal attack. You saying it is, over and above the author's (my) explanation, is a bit daft. You know my intent better than I? Really want to go there?

Jon, you have my perspectives. They are based only on long-distance reports, but they truthfully represent my impression and opinion of the shows. I get that this may not be close to the reality that you and others experience on the ground. There aren't too many reports out there. At the risk of waving the pointy stick (kazoolaw can make a proctology remark here if they wish) are those reports mainly made by people who would fit, so to speak, in the collector group? If that is so, it would go some small way to why my perceptions have this particular slant.

Edit: Soz to hear about the eye. Tricky things, eyes.

Just to add. My position is as a user of pens. Having said that, I do appreciate a good collection - based on my viewing of non-pen related versions in museums and such. <ruffling feathers mode on> A pen is made to be used. That is it's sole function. Collecting and storing is, by some lights, a slightly deviant occupation by comparison, as it bypasses that primary (and indeed only) function. And yet I do not begrudge the collector, as in general it is a harmless peccadillo, and often has archival value.

[kazoolaw]

You know my intent better than I? Really want to go there?

Don't know your intent, only what you wrote. And, no thank you, you'll have to go on alone.

To close on a note of agreement: the old saying about two countries divided by a common language.

[Lady Onogaro]

My experience of pen shows is limited, but I can say that the reason that I've gone to them has only partly been for the sake of seeing pens and inks and papers (quite a bit of which you can find online); I went to meet up with people and experience community, which I think I found at the Dallas Pen Show (the only one I've gone to so far). I have to say it was a delightful experience both times. I had found a place where I could "get my geek on." Honestly, I don't think I had had such a fun time in -- well, maybe ever! It was like nothing else. This last time, I hung out a lot with caribbean skye, who seems to know everybody, and sharmon, and we met up with people in the evenings who were newer to pens and some who really knew their pens. It seemed to me that most were users, though a few were also collectors. I didn't notice any snobbery from anyone, but that show is, I understand, small in comparison to some others. What impressed me was that people encouraged each other to try out their nibs and pens. Lots of knowledge was shared; I so enjoyed talking with everyone. So maybe it depends in part on the show you go to. Could it be that some shows are "friendlier" than others?

Looks like the only person whom you didn't bump into was... me

It's actually very easy to bump into me, I gave a tour to first-time pen-show attendees every *dang* hour last September, this year if I can't recruit a volunteer, I'll dial it down to every 2 hours. That will give me time to actually find some good vintage pens at the show.

Hi, Penwash,

I remember those tours, and thank you so much for doing them. This September, if I am able to go, I will be sure to introduce myself to you. There are a few people that I now know attend that show.

[KKay]

I am a user, according to this thread. I like new pens the most, because they give me the least trouble. I use all my pens, and have no interest in spending a bunch of money on a pen I won't/can't write with. I do have profound respect for both groups though. I have not had a good track record with vintage pens. (except NOS) I like the way vintage pens write. My local pen friends like vintage pens the most. I like to see, and learn about older pens. I don't have a concrete niche so to speak. If I fancy something, I want it. No matter what era it comes from. The newer pens that I've purchased are in my price range for the most part. I too think respect more than integration may be the key. I have no concern over how much money a pen is "worth". My friend is deeply concerned about the value of old pens. I just like to play around with different ones, and enjoy using them. I now have enough of a collection that I have pens in the "rotation", so I guess I could also be somewhat of a hoarder too.

[grainweevil]

I have, as I believe the saying is, no dog in this fight. I've never been to a show in my life, have little prospect of so doing, and certainly not in the USA. But fwiw, it appears from all I've read that the "old guard" expect the "newcomers" to change their ways to be accepted, but with no effort to educate those same newcomers as to what the old guard find exciting (and acceptable) in the hobby. It seems as though you have to know the secret handshake without anyone being willing to tell you what it is until you've proved yourself... with the secret handshake. (To be honest, it often feels like that to me online too - I've not come across a community so shrouded in mystery and back channel goings-on as this FP one). I come from a community of old woodworking tool enthusiasts, collectors and users, and the level of effort put in by both sides to help each other is immense. Collectors are our number one source of knowledge of a brand or model; users often find examples of things that have been unknown to collectors. Both sides make great efforts to share scans of catalogues, detailed records of items, and so forth, without thought of financial gain. The thing is we work together, and no-one sits in judgement as to the worthiness of collector over user or vice versa. We're very small fish in a huge pond of disinterest, and if we don't swim together who the hell is going to swim with us?

[Marsilius]

I always assumed this was a one to one thing. You meet people and establish individual relationships, build trust. You do it long enough and you become one of the old guard? It is interesting to consider this dichotomy as an actual issue.

Funny thing, in my music community (early music with many instruments being hand made copies of museum instruments), some professional players tend to abuse their instruments through a sense that use is more important than perfect polish, while amateurs can tend to take better care of their instruments, keeping them in collector quality shape. A bit of an over-generalization, maybe, but the user/collector dynamic can be a little at odds there, too. Maybe that resonates with perseveres vs. creators a bit, but even there the overlap is quite prevalent. I suspect it has more to do with individual character than with player vs. collector.

[Lady Onogaro]

So I wonder if it's like my church experience--I go to a church where it's been hard to make friends. Acquaintances are easy--friendships are hard. I attribute (perhaps incorrectly, perhaps not) this to the fact that a lot of people connected with this particular church have been a part of it a long time and have had their kids grow up and go to school together. So I suppose the cliques are formed around their school-age children. All the folks whose kids are in college now are friends; all the people whose kids are in grades K-3 are friends; all the people whose kids are in middle school are friends. They don't mean to be exclusive, but they have a history with each other. So where does the newbie go, especially if she has no kids? I just looked for other people who were newbies or who were empty-nesters, etc.

In the pen world, where does the newbie go, if s/he has not many pens? That is, at these shows, Tom and Bill and Stan have been going to the pen shows and pen clubs for 20-30 years; they are used to each other and like each other and look forward to showing each other what they've picked up since the last time--and then here comes the newbie. They don't mean to be rude to the newbie, but they might not enjoy spending time catching up the newbie to what they know. So the newbie has to look for someone who might enjoy doing that.

I've also seen this kind of thing when I was part of a few Sherlock Holmes societies, too. There's sort of a "common knowledge" pool that you have to get up to speed on, and until you do, you may feel left out. I think that the newbie might just have to persist, or find people to "adopt" them. This happened when I went to my first pen show, not with the old guard but with a few people who had been in the pen world longer than I had.

[dam]

@kazoolaw: Smile = show your teeth. Stick two fingers up (it's an English thing) = here's my two fingers for your examination. That you associate the latter with proctology is rather disturbing, but I guess it's whatever floats yer boat.

I posted a sincere impression of show reports in general, and used a specific example to illustrate why I have that impression. The discussion is about perceptions. This was mine based on the online reports. You can disagree with it if you like, but you don't get to call it BS. Your post added precisely nothing to the discussion.

Anyway, I stand by my words. Collectors are preservers, and users are creators. Mostly. That's how I see it. And in the main, as said before, both groups are more than likely looking for different things. However, that in itself shouldn't preclude a dialogue between the two.

I'm actually glad you referenced this specific person, Empty_of_Clouds - I just had a look at his 2016 LA pen show report and I've just realized that I will probably never attend a pen show. It’s not that I have anything against them, or that I don’t want to meet “pen people”, but my interests lie elsewhere and my time is limited. I'm a fountain pen user and the time I spend discussing pens (with friends, mostly), reading about them or shopping for them is infinitely shorter than the time I spend using them. I've been using fountain pens for 30 years as tools. I enjoy the fact that a lot of information is accessible online if I need it - and I have needed and used it regularly. However, I have witnessed a few online arguments and read snarky remarks from experienced pen people directed at new users and they bother me insofar as they are just counterproductive. The two worlds may sometimes intersect, but not all that often. In the end, it doesn't really matter, as perhaps we don't speak the same language. I’m not in the business of fountain pens, I’m in the “business” of applying inks to paper. It’s not the same thing. I remember a photography class I attended a long, long time ago. Before the first class, half the students were discussing their equipment in what I can only describe as a kind of pissing contest. They never talked about the equipment as a way to express themselves but as a sort of finality. I was glad when the teacher had us use homemade pinhole cameras for our first assignments. We all ended up making images, but our focus – pun intended - was radically different.