First Snorkel Repair: Help!

[Chrissy]

hello Chris ....... all too easy to lose track of the exact context of discussion in some of these threads, when they become a little protracted, but I think my original reference to the use of Arkansas stone was in reply to Sailor Kenshin's mention of the word 'scratchy'. This made me remember the advice for 'smoothing' in the Pen repair book, If I have confused smoothing with polishing I beg your eternal forgiveness, but in the circumstances I was probably only trying to make a scratchy nib smooth

I wonder if there is a difference of wording depending on whether you have the most recent edition of the book, or perhaps an earlier one. The heading for the sentence I quoted does read....
'The Manual Method for Smoothing' .......... there isn't any reference to grinding in that para.

I don't know which book version I have but I was referring to the chapter where he is talking about grinding nibs to different profiles, and it has exactly the same wording that you quoted.
SK said: "The tines are slightly misaligned, but I am not confident of realigning them. So it writes, but it's somewhat scratchy."
Nib tines can't be smoothed until they are aligned perfectly, whether you want to grind them, smooth them or whatever. I assumed he only wanted to smooth them slightly, and for that I would never use an arkansas stone, nor do I know anyone who does. I'm not going to continue this discussion any further. I only use an arkansas stone for grinding. It's not something I consider fine enough for smoothing a slightly scratchy nib.

[Sailor Kenshin]

hello Chris - I'd agree that prolonged scribbling on an Arkansas stone would be detrimental to most things, and I was in fact only quoting from the Oldfield & Marshall 'Pen Manual' - have to say that I've not tried this particular stone myself. The authors wording reads.......... "Arkansas natural stone (obtainable from woodcarver's suppliers) is ideal for final smoothing." - page 236.
I have tried some very fine wet and dry paper, but need to practice more, as my results were not very much of an improvement.

I have the book. In that sentence he's referring to nib grinding and changing tip profiles, 'reducing the point to a rounded profile'. His version of a final polish was to 'smear jeweller's rouge on a piece of paper and write over it.'
SK mentioned that his 'tines were slightly misaligned'. I wouldn't use an arkansas stone for that as it would end up making one tine smaller than the other. I would use my fingernails to realign them. My 'final polish' would be on a sponge backed emery board using the grey side that is 12,000 micro mesh

I use those all the time!

Tines are resistent to being aligned. I will try again later; one is visibly 'up' from the other.

[Chrissy]

I use those all the time!

Tines are resistent to being aligned. I will try again later; one is visibly 'up' from the other.

I had that on an Aurora once. It can be seriously annoying. I wish I knew whether there was a foolproof way to decide whether you need to take the higher one down or the lower one up.

[Sailor Kenshin]

I use those all the time!

Tines are resistent to being aligned. I will try again later; one is visibly 'up' from the other.

I had that on an Aurora once. It can be seriously annoying. I wish I knew whether there was a foolproof way to decide whether you need to take the higher one down or the lower one up.

Well, if it refuses to go one way I'll have to try the other.

[Chrissy]

I use those all the time!

Tines are resistent to being aligned. I will try again later; one is visibly 'up' from the other.

I had that on an Aurora once. It can be seriously annoying. I wish I knew whether there was a foolproof way to decide whether you need to take the higher one down or the lower one up.

Well, if it refuses to go one way I'll have to try the other.

That sounds like a plan.

[PaulS]

it may sound like a plan, but I'd suggest it needs slightly more of a rational approach, which would be that ......... the tine that needs to be moved will be the one that - when adjusted - ensures both of them are in maximum contact with the feed. I know from experience that tines can be a pain to move - the fear being that as pressure is increased there will be sudden and excessive movement - more than you wanted............. and so you have to start all over again.

Will send out nibs to you Chris - for re-alignment, and polishing

[mhosea]

the tine that needs to be moved will be the one that - when adjusted - ensures both of them are in maximum contact with the feed.

This depends on the current adjustment of the feed. Ideally (in most cases), the end of the tines are NOT in contact with the feed, rather just slightly removed from it so that an ordinary sheet of paper can be inserted between them but will be "grabbed". If the paper slides in and out freely, without any drag, the tines are too far from the feed. On the flip side, the tines can be misaligned because the feed is pushing up on them. In that case, attempting direct adjustment of the tines without first adjusting the feed is futile.

[Sailor Kenshin]

it may sound like a plan, but I'd suggest it needs slightly more of a rational approach, which would be that ......... the tine that needs to be moved will be the one that - when adjusted - ensures both of them are in maximum contact with the feed. I know from experience that tines can be a pain to move - the fear being that as pressure is increased there will be sudden and excessive movement - more than you wanted............. and so you have to start all over again.

Will send out nibs to you Chris - for re-alignment, and polishing

Well. That plan is scrapped.

I have an old, mis-colored Parker Duofold Jr. that a friend sent me decades ago and we just recently re-sacced it. Its tines are similarly misaligned and it writes similarly scratchily.

I also just re-sacced another Duofold that I got at a junk store for $2.50. Its nib had been missing and we put in a donor from a junker pen. Guess whose tines were misaligned as well. But in VERY GENTLY easing the high tine down, I noted that it's now about to snap off.

I like the Saratoga and that green Duofold way too much to risk snapping them as well. And I have realigned tines before with success.

[PaulS]

well folks I can, again, only refer to Laurence and Jim's wonderful manual, where it says........... "For even flow of ink it is essential that the feed should lie snugly against the feed. Check this by the paper test. Slide a piece of paper between the nib and the feed. If the paper cannot be inserted, the adjustment is probably correct." etc.
So, I take this to imply the tines should lie touching the feed, although presumably they should project out in a more or less straight line.

[Chrissy]

the tine that needs to be moved will be the one that - when adjusted - ensures both of them are in maximum contact with the feed.

This depends on the current adjustment of the feed. Ideally (in most cases), the end of the tines are NOT in contact with the feed, rather just slightly removed from it so that an ordinary sheet of paper can be inserted between them but will be "grabbed". If the paper slides in and out freely, without any drag, the tines are too far from the feed. On the flip side, the tines can be misaligned because the feed is pushing up on them. In that case, attempting direct adjustment of the tines without first adjusting the feed is futile.

Is that what they call 'Heat setting' the feed? I did it with my Jinhao that never seems to write well for long. I just warmed it up in warm water and then pushed the feed closer to the tines, then held it and the nib there for a few minutes. It's much better now.

[mhosea]

well folks I can, again, only refer to Laurence and Jim's wonderful manual, where it says........... "For even flow of ink it is essential that the feed should lie snugly against the feed. Check this by the paper test. Slide a piece of paper between the nib and the feed. If the paper cannot be inserted, the adjustment is probably correct." etc.
So, I take this to imply the tines should lie touching the feed, although presumably they should project out in a more or less straight line.

Sounds like we have a case of conflicting lore. Tacitly ignoring the question of what is and isn't "essential", I think we can tolerate differences in lore about what adjustment is best, i.e. so snug that paper cannot be inserted at all versus just close enough that one can barely do so. There's not a lot of difference there. The point I was making is that one circumstance that arises occasionally with new pens or when changing nibs is that the feed is already pressing up on the tines. This can, in fact, cause misalignment. Adjusting downwards towards the feed is not the direction you want to go in that case, though it must be said that in that situation, the first order of business is to adjust the feed and then reassess whether the the tines still need adjustment.

[mhosea]

I just warmed it up in warm water and then pushed the feed closer to the tines, then held it and the nib there for a few minutes. It's much better now.

Yes, that's what you have to do with plastic feeds. They're barely adjustable, but they can be adjusted to important degrees to bring the tip close to the tines. I wouldn't recommend dry heat on a plastic feed (too hard to dial in), but I generally avoid hot water with hard rubber feeds because old hard rubber feeds can discolor if exposed to hot water (IIRC, depending on how much UV exposure they've had over their lifetime). Hard rubber feeds are really easy to adjust.

[PaulS]

would agree that most lore allows for some leeway without dire results, and at the end of the day if the pen writes o.k. then why fix it - although tine mis-alignment could give scratchy writing and that wouldn't be acceptable and would need some adjustment. I suspect the emphasis on making sure the feed and tines are in good contact with each other, is for the benefit of folk who might unwittingly not realize the importance of that issue, and end up with noticeable gaps, giving poor results when writing.
I've just tried dry writing (inkless) with a full flex nib, and in fact the forward tip of the feed loses contact with the nib anyway, for 2 - 3 mm, due to upward distortion of the tines caused by pressure when writing - and as we know flex nibs will tram-line if pressure is overdone. Always possible this up and down movement of the flexing causes the ink to flow well - each time the tines return to contact the feed the ink flows again to maintain presence at the tines, despite the intermittent lack of contact with the feed. When a flex nib is filled that gap isn't seen due to ink taking up the space. Firm nibs no problem. Perhaps that's why all those Parker nails rarely give a problem

Fine tuning a nib (on whatever stone or material you choose), doesn't get round the issue of the sharp inside edge of the tipping material, and as someone said that might cause scratching - so is the answer to use something like a 2000 - 3000 grit paper between the tines and give the point a little massage?

[Chrissy]

- so is the answer to use something like a 2000 - 3000 grit paper between the tines and give the point a little massage?

That sounds far too rough. In fact I'm sure I couldn't get a piece of 2000-3000 grit sandpaper between the tines of any of my nibs. I have only ever used a piece of brass shim, and have never needed anything else.

[mhosea]

so is the answer to use something like a 2000 - 3000 grit paper between the tines and give the point a little massage?

IIRC, Richard Binder's notes recommend something about like that for that particular job. The writing surface and flat inner surfaces of the slit are spared. One just need dull the very edge. You have to lift one tine and then the other to expose the edges for this treatment. Go easy. Take off too much, and you'll get those little 1mm delays in flow on the downstrokes when writing on coated paper (e.g. when writing tally marks).

[PaulS]

thanks for that link Mike.

[Chrissy]

so is the answer to use something like a 2000 - 3000 grit paper between the tines and give the point a little massage?

IIRC, Richard Binder's notes recommend something about like that for that particular job. The writing surface and flat inner surfaces of the slit are spared. One just need dull the very edge. You have to lift one tine and then the other to expose the edges for this treatment. Go easy. Take off too much, and you'll get those little 1mm delays in flow on the downstrokes when writing on coated paper (e.g. when writing tally marks).