What is up with FPN?

[tenney]

Aye, just a wee bit of spring water.

[nxn96]

Tries to drown bad taste from her mouth with a swig of Akkerman Vorhoot Violet.

You are the target demographic for flavored inks.

How you guys taking your ink - neat or with a chaser?

Neat, most definitely neat.

+1

And don't you dare do it over the rocks.

It'll bruise the nib.

[aschup]

+1 to what Jon Szanto said. It's so easy to chatter away around the world, so we do. Honestly, it often leads to a lot of drivel and not much substance. I'm guilty myself.

Thinks ... now how do we change it?

Pretty sure that's the fault of the drivelers, not the internet.

[aschup]

My heart literally aches when I hear of stories of people sending an email or even text message on hearing of the death of a loved one. That human life, and human bonds, are worth no more than a few typed characters, as easily dispensed and dismissed as a grocery list. "Oh, no, I meant that, I really did. I was sincere in my feelings." Fuck off. Take the time to be real, and be there for others.

I'm sorry but this is absurd. One of my friends recently lost his father, and I texted him my condolences and said if he wanted to chat or needed anything I was there for him. You know why? Because a) I don't even have his current mailing address, since we're both in our 20s and move around a lot, and b) I'm thousands of miles away and would like to reach out to a friend and express my sympathies without waiting a few days for the post office to convey the EXACT SAME MESSAGE in physical form. The idea that you don't care or that the message is somehow less meaningful just because you use a means that is faster and more convenient is asinine.

[79spitfire]

Didn't FPN used to have nearly 700 classifieds (just for pens classifieds) prior to their new tiered system? Now they have about half TOTAL. Hmmm... I find it difficult to believe that the demand has gone down so much as to affect the supply so drastically. Where have these listings gone? I know that my potential listings (and I rarely sell) have vanished. They will pop up elsewhere. Have not decided yet.


Tries to drown bad taste from her mouth with a swig of Akkerman Vorhoot Violet.

I don't think I'll ever forget the picture of you doing that! Did you get sick?

[Jon Szanto]

+1 to what Jon Szanto said. It's so easy to chatter away around the world, so we do. Honestly, it often leads to a lot of drivel and not much substance. I'm guilty myself. Thinks ... now how do we change it?

Pretty sure that's the fault of the drivelers, not the internet.

I didn't read that he implied otherwise. It *is* the people, not the transmission device. OTOH, the means of communication has a fairly profound effect on *how* things are communicated. This is one of the issues (see below).

I'm sorry but this is absurd. One of my friends recently lost his father, and I texted him my condolences and said if he wanted to chat or needed anything I was there for him. You know why? Because a) I don't even have his current mailing address, since we're both in our 20s and move around a lot, and b) I'm thousands of miles away and would like to reach out to a friend and express my sympathies without waiting a few days for the post office to convey the EXACT SAME MESSAGE in physical form. The idea that you don't care or that the message is somehow less meaningful just because you use a means that is faster and more convenient is asinine.

I understand, and I'll grant that there are people - like yourself - who make a transition to only changing the medium. I don't believe it to be an across-the-board change in societal behavior.

However, when one doesn't even *look* at these issues ("absurd", "asinine"), the incremental creep of treating relationships in a surface-like manner can and will happen. And does. I won't go into your particular episode because it is personal. I do note, though, that you end with a positive spin on speed and convenience. In lesser compassionate hands, that is all it takes to turn something into a rather shallow experience, and then look up blankly when confronted. "What?"

Aschup, I'm concerned about the overall effect; I'm heartened that people like you are able to - at the moment - keep priorities. I don't, though, wish to ignore the very real downside that all the "faster and more convenient" routes are paved with.

[aschup]

Aschup, I'm concerned about the overall effect; I'm heartened that people like you are able to - at the moment - keep priorities. I don't, though, wish to ignore the very real downside that all the "faster and more convenient" routes are paved with.

That's totally fair, and I agree with you on the more general effects (and there is research to back it up). I just took issue with the whole "fuck off with your digital condolences" thing.

[Jon Szanto]

That's totally fair, and I agree with you on the more general effects (and there is research to back it up). I just took issue with the whole "fuck off with your digital condolences" thing.

A poor choice of wording in the first place, on my part. One gets messy when emotional, eh? (At least I tend to.)

If I may, a general question to you (and others): you mentioned the transmission of "the EXACT SAME MESSAGE", which I take to mean the actual words. Here we are, on a forum devoted to the ancient art of fountain pens - would you feel no difference whatsoever between a card or letter that comes to you that is hand-written, maybe even in nice script, and an email of the same 'content'? Not in the specific instance you mentioned (where getting your thoughts there quickly, I agree, has merit), but in general? I must confess, when I get an actual letter these days, it elevates the experience.

I guess we've gotten *very* far from the OP...

[Daisy]

...and take the time to at least make a stab at eloquence.
...

I don't think I've encountered anything more difficult than trying to write eloquently. It's something I strive to do every time I write for FPGeeks, but fear I fail repeatedly. Perhaps I should have paid more attention while in school.

I've snipped for the sake of brevity, but the subject is near and dear to my heart. While there are many who use the "virtual" electronic means and methods for communication as wholeheartedly as they would in person, it is also true that there are many who use it specifically to pretend relationship, to fake sincerity, and to manipulate others. I have even seen IM used as a weapon -- who's on, who's off, who's invisible, etc. -- how can that even be? I mean, how shallow is that? I don't even DO Facebook or Twitter; God forbid. I look at some of this celebrity use of Twitter to fight meaningless and spiteful little emotional guerilla wars that are then magnified by the media, and I literally can't wrap my head around choices like that. It's not that I'm that *good* of a person, it's that I'm that *exhausted* of a person, so much so that I just can't imagine having that much voluntary strife in my life!!!

But the problem is not the method. The problem -- if there is one -- is always and ever the person. (You know, the whole "fountain pens don't kill people, people kill people" argument.) The problem is not the email or the IM or the casual twit; the real problem is the person who uses the digital medium in which to hide, the person who seeks superficiality (aka unaccountability) in his/her relationships, the person who seeks to control, manipulate and dominate others, the person who seeks to be *liked* at any cost even if that means doing and saying very wrong things, the person who wants the very best of others while putting out as little as possible of him- or herself.

To me -- and feel free to disagree -- in the example that Jon gave above, the problem is not the medium, but the perception that the person just didn't give enough of a damn to write a real letter: in other words, that they were just mouthing unmeant condolences so as to be seen as doing the right thing. Is that true? I don't know, but I don't think it can be measured by the medium used. Many people do that sort of thing anyway -- lying to be seen as polite/courteous/having done the right thing -- regardless of the medium chosen to communicate the sentiment, and while it's true that sometimes it's just because the person doesn't care, many times it's because they do care and just don't know what to say or how to say it. So I don't find it easy to condemn solely on the details given. So many times people *want* to demonstrate affection and concern, and just don't know how.

Conversely, people can be shallow and dishonest regardless of the medium. To be frank, I can lie with pen and paper just as readily as I can with my mouth or with email, and I suspect everyone else can too -- though like Jon I must confess it would go down easier handlettered on Italian cardstock in a neat italic script with Iroshizuku via a custom Danitrio, in an exquisite matching envelope with a stamp someone actually had to pay cash for. That's definitely a lie with class. But it's still a lie, if that's what it set out to be: if someone truly doesn't give a crap but wants you to think they do, that's a lie no matter how they get it across to you.

So from where I'm sitting, it's not an issue of the means, nor is it an issue of eloquence. It's an issue of how much I care and of giving my very best -- no matter how wretched that may be on any given day -- and being real, of not treating other human beings as disposable, of doing unto others as I'd truly like them to do unto me even in conflict and disagreement. And all that comes down to one word for me:

Sincerity.

Give me your sincerity any day -- even if that's a very sincere and heartfelt "F*** YOU! -- and you've given me the greatest gift you have: yourself. If you give me less than that, then I never knew you and never can, and we're both screwed: once someone starts the pretty lies it's all more or less pretense from that point forward. And for my part, I try very hard to be sincere, to be kind, to demonstrate the value that others have for my in my reflected behavior and words. I don't always make it, but I do always try.

And very occasionally, when the stars line up, eloquence follows. VERY occasionally. But it's not my main goal. Being real, being kind, being of some help or blessing to others is. Any eloquence on my part is entirely accidental.

Feel free to disagree...

[Jon Szanto]

Daisy: flower.gif

[fountainpenkid]

I guess we've gotten *very* far from the OP...

No problem. This topic has been leading to interesting debates and discussions, and I actually like how it is all over the place.

[cedargirl]

Very well put Daisy.

And thank you to fountainpenkid for being tolerant of so many people voicing their passionate concerns, albeit by hijacking a thread.

I think aschup, you have reminded me that there is a different generation out there that uses the internet and social networks as a matter of course. And you are right. It would be very odd for my 18 year old son to ask for some fancy stationery so he could write a condolence note to a friend. That's just not the norm for them.

But where it is the norm to do it more traditionally - as in Jon's case - then that's what is needed.

It has been interesting to read this thread. Many passionate thoughts put eloquently.

[79spitfire]

(been dying to use that smiley!)

[Pendragon]

+1 to what Jon Szanto said. It's so easy to chatter away around the world, so we do. Honestly, it often leads to a lot of drivel and not much substance. I'm guilty myself.

Thinks ... now how do we change it?

We don't change it, we change how we respond to it. There will often be a gulf between a person's idealized notion of how things should be and reality. This approach might make sense in such cases:

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference."

Sometimes one person can make a huge difference. Other times, trying to change things is like trying to sweep back the ocean with a broom.

Aschup is right, it is the fault of the drivelers rather than the Internet. Trying to get them to stop the nonsense might be easier said than done. The same goes for getting people to convey messages with paper and pen rather than by email or texting.

[ethernautrix]

[QUOTE=Pendragon;33486]

Aschup is right, it is the fault of the drivelers rather than the Internet. Trying to get them to stop the nonsense might be easier said than done. The same goes for getting people to convey messages with paper and pen rather than by email or texting.

I just wish drivers would use their turn signals....

[79spitfire]

[QUOTE=ethernautrix;33487]

Aschup is right, it is the fault of the drivelers rather than the Internet. Trying to get them to stop the nonsense might be easier said than done. The same goes for getting people to convey messages with paper and pen rather than by email or texting.

I just wish drivers would use their turn signals....

+1

[Jon Szanto]

I just wish drivers would use their turn signals....

... and turn them off again, sometime within the current decade.

[cedargirl]

Now known affectionately as the "What's up with the World" thread...

[Jon Szanto]

3pih7y.jpg

[HughC]

Hey...that's Matt's avatar...are we entering the murky world of "stolen avatar identity" ? Now, really, this is pretty "heavy s%&t" , who know where this could lead.....