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Thread: forum rules suggestions

  1. #41
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    By the way, I am in no way trying to suggest that I am any kind of leader or moderator here. I just wanted to widen a conversation that was closed on another thread. In fact, I post more often at FPN. But I thought that I would try to help out a bit.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    True, Fred, but this environment has also chased some thoughtful and kind people away simply because of the rude aggressiveness. Some posters have left in fear, even. Tolerating toxicity can also be a form of self-poisoning. I left Reddit because I just couldn't tolerate the level of toxicity. Here I use the ignore functionality. But I appreciate your position and words.
    TSherbs... are you... casting aspersions towards Reddit...in violation to your own rule #4... ??

    (just in case anyone miss the smiley at the end, please take the above as a light-hearted comment)

    Joking aside, for the most part I feel the fountain pen community on Reddit is more tolerant and accomodating than what was reflected in a few threads here on FPGeeks. For example, the denizens of /r/fountainpens are a lot more ready to admit mistakes, apologize for it, commensurate with others who just got their pens stolen, etc.

    While the FPGeeks (and FPN) are more "traditional" in that sentences like "Where did I say that" or "Please read again what I wrote" are more frequently found.

    Now, the level of juvenile jokes are quite painful (at least for me) on Reddit. But that's because I'm older now and no longer find raunchiness cool anymore.
    - Will
    Unique and restored vintage pens: Redeem Pens

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  4. #43
    FP Enthusiast Emeritus mhosea's Avatar
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Fair enough. I am interested in your thoughts on it.
    Happy to oblige.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    1) Conduct oneself through kindness.
    2) Limit generalizations to collections of facts and experiences that you have specifically witnessed with pens, inks, etc.
    3) Focus on the pen, ink, paper (etc) item or topic, not the person making the post that you are responding to.
    4) Cast no aspersions toward any living things or groups or categories of living things.
    5) Help other members with information and experiences; reserve judgments.
    6) Treat others as you wish to be treated.
    7) Enter a PIF only after committing to be available and responsive should you win.
    8) Refrain from public interference on sales threads unless and only when a deception is occurring. Otherwise, use private messaging to communicate with seller/buyer.
    1) I personally strive for this, but I don't require or even expect it of others. What I expect would have more to do with dignity than kindness.
    2) We will fail miserably and constantly at this, but am I over-generalizing? I think what you're probably going for here are broad-brushed claims about entire brands or lines, Noodler's Ink, for example. But some qualifier or other is missing. I think we can talk about the physics of having, say, a cracked section without having had a cracked section.
    3) Yes. The forum serves best to talk with one another, not about one another, and certainly not to harass one another.
    4) This is another goal. I agree with it in a nebulous way, but I think it will be more the rule than the exception that when person A believes that person B is casting aspersions, person B believes they are stating a simple fact. I think it is better to challenge the so-called fact than to remind the person of a guideline that they will probably think does not apply. So I'm skeptical not of the sentiment here, rather of how useful and applicable such a guideline would be.
    5) Yes.
    6) Yes.
    7) Yes (but I have no experience with PIFs, so I would defer on this, anyway).
    8) Yes!
    --
    Mike

  5. #44
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    Thanks, Mike, for the thoughtful reply.

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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Updated suggested rules of conduct, using the suggestions from above:

    Posting guidelines:


    1) Conduct oneself through kindness.
    2) Limit generalizations to collections of facts and experiences that you have specifically witnessed with pens, inks, etc.
    3) Focus on the pen, ink, paper (etc) item or topic, not the person making the post that you are responding to.
    4) Cast no aspersions toward any living things or groups or categories of living things.
    5) Help other members with information and experiences; reserve judgments.
    6) Treat others as you wish to be treated.
    7) Enter a PIF only after committing to be available and responsive should you win.
    8) Refrain from public interference on sales threads unless and only when a deception is occurring. Otherwise, use private messaging to communicate with seller/buyer.

    In general I agree with the sentiment expressed here. Unfortunately there are always people (there's a few on this forum) who will use "free expression" as carte blanche to behave in a manner that they would not tolerate in others. You can set a personal example of decent behaviour, and perhaps hope that other people will see it as a thing worth cultivating. Beyond that, and barring the imposing of forum rules, there will always be people who feel the rules don't apply to them or simply do not care.

    As for the classifieds... there is a great deal of un-enlightened self-interest there. I've always been hugely entertained by the "back stories" trotted out by serial sellers about why they are selling pens. Prices are all over the shop/ I note there is currently a sale up for a pen at a price that is actually above the new price. While it is perhaps down to the individual to exercise due diligence when looking at potential purchases, we cannot decry pointing this out here when we are more than happy to do the same for sales in other places.
    Thanks, EOC.

    Yes, there will be those who offend and insult. Fermata, above, suggested that without enforcement we will not get 100% compliance. Of course, no schema ever engenders 100% compliance, and there will be those who hurt others.

    But perhaps if we more openly and consciously agree on a set of standards, we may improve the tone around here. Even this thread has been better.

    On the sales threads, I understand your point and said as much in that other thread. I see no reason why you shouldn't pm the seller about your observations on the price listing, or any potential buyer. But I would only do so if the discrepancy is significant (say, 10% or more higher). If it seems like a scam to you, then by all means announce it to the world in order to maintain a general sense of honesty and trust in the marketplace here (IMO). I would always (I have done this twice) pm the seller first to see what response I got (both times the seller reduced the price shortly after).

  7. #46
    Senior Member carlc's Avatar
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    (--snip--)

    Or -- since I don't know anything about him -- maybe the owner of this forum just want to conduct a social experiment with us
    Ha ha! I was thinking about that the other day as I finished up mandatory coursework on IRB approval for conducting social research with human subjects. If this is some sort of grand qualitative study, I'm certainly glad that I'm not the one transcribing and coding the data!
    Yay a qualitative research joke! (I got it anyway)



    Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

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  9. #47
    FP Enthusiast Emeritus mhosea's Avatar
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Prices are all over the shop/ I note there is currently a sale up for a pen at a price that is actually above the new price. While it is perhaps down to the individual to exercise due diligence when looking at potential purchases, we cannot decry pointing this out here when we are more than happy to do the same for sales in other places.
    If we have a thread here commenting on a for-sale situation elsewhere, we are, ipso facto, not discussing it in the actual for-sale thread. Consequently, to be fair and consistent in that, we cannot post directly to the for-sale thread. Rather, we must start a discussion thread that is separate. It would not be in the for-sale forum, let alone in the for-sale thread.

    My interpretation of this rule may be looser than intended. I interpret "interference" as anything having a potentially negative effect on the seller's likelihood of making a timely sale at their asking price. I've only had one or two instances in years where somebody posted something they should have PM'd to me, but I've also seen (in somebody else's thread) a newbie stroll in and start trying to full-on negotiate out in the open, complete with talking down the item, you know, the old "That pen is crap. I give you $5 for it" bit.
    --
    Mike

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  11. #48
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    Bump

  12. #49
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Updated suggested rules of conduct, using the suggestions from above:

    Posting guidelines:


    1) Conduct oneself through kindness.
    2) Limit generalizations to collections of facts and experiences that you have specifically witnessed with pens, inks, etc.
    3) Focus on the pen, ink, paper (etc) item or topic, not the person making the post that you are responding to.
    4) Cast no aspersions toward any living things or groups or categories of living things.
    5) Help other members with information and experiences; reserve judgments.
    6) Treat others as you wish to be treated.
    7) Enter a PIF only after committing to be available and responsive should you win.
    8) Refrain from public interference on sales threads unless and only when a deception is occurring. Otherwise, use private messaging to communicate with seller/buyer.
    This thread has grown quiet, with no more suggestions to this list (see above). Beyond some clarifying questions, there was no disagreement on the tenor and scope of these. Thank you for your interest and comments.

  13. #50
    Senior Member KKay's Avatar
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    I am just now reading this. I kind of like things the way they are around here. Now there is a troll who comes in now and then, I'd like to see him shown the door. Other than that I'm a happy camper. All I know is I don't want the owner of the site to get ticked, and just shut it down. I'm happy he is kind enough to pay the bills. Maybe he feels he has done his part right there, and doesn't want any drama. I think overall the atmosphere in here is very kind, helpful, and a breath of fresh air. I wasn't here during whatever disturbance happened at this place. I think I may know who the site owner is, but I don't personally know him. I like every pen forum I've been on. I don't have a problem with any of them. I also like things here as they are. It would be nice to have more ongoing threads, that would be the only thing I can think of that I'd personally like to see.

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  15. #51
    FPG Donor ♕ Chrissy's Avatar
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    I'm a happy camper too, and so far I've avoided commenting on this thread because I see no point in potentially upsetting the administrator. No-one but him has any authority to suggest what rules should apply, and nor should we try. That's for the administrator to decide, and it's his decision alone. If he's happy with it the way it is, then that's fine by me.

    For suggestions, you could do worse than look at the Rules and Guidelines on FPN. They have been, for the most part, seen to be working, and they don't have any particular "laid down in stone" specifics to particular forums.

    It should be taken as read that we are all adults who should know how to conduct ourselves fairly and politely at all times, and that's what we should concentrate on.

    In my humble opinion we could do worse that adopt this suggestion from FPN:
    "In short: take part, post in a friendly manner, offer advice as and when you can, debate when you must, but please have fun!"
    Last edited by Chrissy; April 20th, 2017 at 01:35 AM.

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  17. #52
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    I spent much of last year in Switzerland and it was very nice to see how politeness of every driver, a great deal of respect was shown.

    I later found out that the licensing authority publishes names and address of the owners of every Swiss registered car. Give someone abuse whilst driving and you might expect a knock on your door.

    We have all seen abuse and intimidation handed out by FPG membership and has been public humiliation has been referred to as an acceptable practice earlier in this thread.

    Without active moderation there will be no change in practices so new rules are not going to happen, particularly if there is no concessus or will to change.

    Lets all be nice and play well together.

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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    We have all seen abuse and intimidation handed out by FPG membership and has been public humiliation has been referred to as an acceptable practice earlier in this thread.
    I'm scratching my head on this one (bolded statement above).
    Help us understand where has this happened exactly?
    - Will
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    I'll just pipe in to say that I am grateful for the presence of this site/forum. Rule number 6 seems to cover a lot of territory in any setting. Grumpy conversations occur sometimes, but they seem to run the course of normal family arguments, meaning they eventually subside or flair up again when someone is reminded of them. I work on the premise that people are trying their best to be positive and helpful, and breathe twice whenever something I read seems inflammatory. A four-part premise I follow in academia is: 1. Misunderstandings are easy. 2. Understanding may not solve a disagreement. 3. Kindness and respect can help bridge gaps, both perceived and real. 4. When sometimes nothing helps, keep low and keep moving.
    Fortibus es in ero

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    Senior Member R.A. Stewart's Avatar
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    I have also not seen bad behavior over here. A few cases where a couple of members' disagreement got more heated and personal than what I'd go in for, but nothing I thought was really toxic. I'm sure that is partly because of my limited participation and the fact that I have not been a member as long as some. But, you know, there are sites where you can't spend an hour without wishing for body armor.

    If we've been left to govern ourselves, my impression is that we've been doing a good job on the whole.

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  23. #56
    FP Enthusiast Emeritus mhosea's Avatar
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    We have all seen abuse and intimidation handed out by FPG membership and has been public humiliation has been referred to as an acceptable practice earlier in this thread.
    I'm scratching my head on this one (bolded statement above).
    Help us understand where has this happened exactly?
    I think this is mainly just an overreaction to a choice of words. Any well-functioning society has some sort of structure to it and a consensus about what sorts of behaviors are acceptable and what sorts are not. People vary in their propensity to "act out", and there's always somebody to test the limits or not bother to be their own editor, and every well-functioning society has corrective mechanisms to respond to it, to discourage it. One of the things we enjoy in modern civilization is a police force, which is something we notably lack an analog for here on the forum, but police are really there for more egregious cases, anyway. Good people are taught to "color between the lines" because when they don't, they experience the disapproval of the society in some way or other. I believe what Jar was referring to was essentially expressing disapproval in a collective way that sends the clear message "This is not acceptable behavior." A good person thus chastised will feel "shame".

    One reason I'm not really that supportive of making a set of rules explicit is that they'll only ever be an imperfect representation of the real rules, the ones that emerge from our collective sensibilities. Obviously there are some of us who would like to nudge the rules in one direction or another, more restrictive or less so, but in reality one does this not by a formal agreement, rather by changing enough minds that this is the direction in which the collective sensibilities evolve. In a sense, this is what TSherbs is trying to do here, whether anything comes of the explicit rules or not.
    Last edited by mhosea; April 20th, 2017 at 08:15 PM.
    --
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    I'm a happy camper too, and so far I've avoided commenting on this thread because I see no point in potentially upsetting the administrator. No-one but him has any authority to suggest what rules should apply, and nor should we try. That's for the administrator to decide, and it's his decision alone. If he's happy with it the way it is, then that's fine by me
    I agree to that 100%
    I feel also no need to define rule suggestions, beside that I'm annoyed by the huge amount of sales threads which blocks my sight to the real content I'm fine.

    This community regulate itself automatically, we are all adults, no need for additional rule sets.

    BTW. When I reported an Ad post whitin one of my threads our admin immediately removed it, so I have no reason to complain about a nonresponsive admin.

    What I absolutely not want to see is such a ridicoulus rules set like on FPN ,and a commercialization like there, combined with completely stupid admins/mods which think they can rule/censor halfgod like the members like over there.

    Leave it like it is, itˋs perfectly fine (beside hiding the sales threads in the "What's new")

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  27. #58
    FPG Donor ♕ Chrissy's Avatar
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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Pterodactylus View Post
    What I absolutely not want to see is such a ridicoulus rules set like on FPN ,and a commercialization like there, combined with completely stupid admins/mods which think they can rule/censor halfgod like the members like over there.

    Leave it like it is, itˋs perfectly fine (beside hiding the sales threads in the "What's new")
    I agree with you in the main part, but IMHO it isn't the actual rules & guidelines on FPN that are at fault per se, it's the way some of their heavy-handed moderators, who consider themselves to be God-like, interpret and administer them, and act like all-knowing dictators despite the fact that the rules and guidelines say that's not how they are meant to act.

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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    I'm a happy camper too, and so far I've avoided commenting on this thread because I see no point in potentially upsetting the administrator. No-one but him has any authority to suggest what rules should apply, and nor should we try. That's for the administrator to decide, and it's his decision alone. If he's happy with it the way it is, then that's fine by me....
    Thanks, Chrissy. I labeled this thread and truly meant it as only "suggestions" and a place where we might try to find consensus in respectful terms for an argument that was boiling over into ungracious terms on another thread. The site owner(s) is, of course, free to do whatever he/she/they want. This has all been nothing but chat seeking clarity. Including those voices, like yours, saying they like things the way they are. Terrific! My mission with the thread is accomplished. And perhaps not surprisingly, very little debate has occurred about the actual guideline suggestions; there appears to be much consensus (or indifference). And, nothing here is meant as a "rule." As you note, only an ownership group (and admin team) can set those.

    I certainly meant no offense to a site owner, nor did I imagine that any could be taken. I never imagined that a site owner would even be reading this (nor do I mind, in any way). I meant the discussion for us, and selected the appropriate forum for the discussion.

    Thanks to all for your suggestions.

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    Default Re: forum rules suggestions

    Well, here's a blatant example: https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread...l-50ml-Bottles At first, I smiled when I read the thread, noting the "likes" by so many members. But then I thought a bit more.

    Is there more sensitivity about discontinued Lamy ink than, say, Parker Penman or Montblanc inks that have commanded ridiculous prices for years? But that's no excuse. If I saw a dozen bottles of MB racing green in a stationer's shop today at the old MSRP $12 a bottle, I assure you I'd buy them all and offer them at a price that undercuts current market. Buyers and I would be quite happy.

    https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread...l=1#post205650

    If one doesn't like a price on an item, don't buy. Let the seller languish with unsold inventory until he brings the price down. Or make an offer by PM.

    Fred
    Last edited by FredRydr; June 14th, 2017 at 06:36 AM.

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