Please Help Me Identify This Vintage Waterman Pen!

[bearhung]

Hi guys, this is my first post here. ;-)

I got this serviced vintage Waterman FP from a local store but can't find much information about it on the internet. Does anyone know what model it is and its approximate year of manufacturing?

Capped length: approx. 11cm (slightly more than four and a quarter inch)
Imprint on nib: Waterman's Ideal 14kt Canada 2A
Imprint on barrel: Waterman's Made in Canada

Possible candidates identified so far include the Waterman W5, W2 and Lady Patricia:

W5: my pen also has the iconic triple bands of W5 (in the order of narrow-broad-narrow) and a flat barrel
W2: but someone told me my pen is much smaller than a W5 and could be a W2
Lady Patricia: Someone has posted out a page in an old Waterman catalogue with a picture that really looks like my pen but unfortunately there is no data on the dimensions of the pen.

Here are the photos of my pen. Please see if you can help me identify the true identity of my pen, thank you!










The typical triple cap bands of W5:



The old Waterman cataglogue page on "Lady Patricia"

[southpaw52]

I looked through my information on Waterman pens. Your pen appears to be a Stalwart, made in the 40's. The only thing that does not match is the bands. The clip is definitely from the 40's.

[rcburgin]

The pen appears to be a No.2 Ladies size from the 40's.

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[bearhung]

Hi southpaw52, thanks for your input. Could you tell me the reason why you think it's a Stalwart? I couldn't find any image of a Stalwart with such a triple cap band but it does resemble many of the W5 I've seen on the net, although my pen seems much shorter than than a W5. ;-)

[bearhung]

Hi rcburgin, do you mean Waterman W2?

[rcburgin]

Hi bearhung, It does look like a W2, as I think they are longer. The OAL, clip, cap bands, & lever match a 2 Lady size....... IMHO!

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[rcburgin]

Hi bearhung, I meant to say it does NOT look like a W2.

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[bearhung]

The pen appears to be a No.2 Ladies size from the 40's.

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Excuse me rcburgin I didn't quite get it. Do you mean there is a Waterman model called "No.2" and this pen seems like a lady size version of this model? However I can't find a model with such name on Google. So what model of Waterman do you suggest this pen really is?

[rcburgin]

See page 102 of Max Davis & Gary Leher's Waterman book.

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[Deb]

The Waterman W2 has two narrow cap rings. This pen with the narrow/broad/narrow cap rings appears to be a W5.

[bearhung]

See page 102 of Max Davis & Gary Leher's Waterman book.

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Thank you. I don't have this book and can't find it in the library. Maybe I'll try to ask if any of my friend has it.

[bearhung]

The Waterman W2 has two narrow cap rings. This pen with the narrow/broad/narrow cap rings appears to be a W5.

That is also what I thought. My only doubt is that all W5 found on the internet is much bigger than my pen (which has a capped length of just a little bit more than 4 1/4 inch). I can't find any evidence that there is a lady-size version of W5.

[southpaw52]

Hi southpaw52, thanks for your input. Could you tell me the reason why you think it's a Stalwart? I couldn't find any image of a Stalwart with such a triple cap band but it does resemble many of the W5 I've seen on the net, although my pen seems much shorter than than a W5. ;-)

Everything looks like a Stalwart, as you said expect the for the bands. The other issue is that many of the 40's styled Commando styled pens were unnamed models making id difficult. I have seen two photos of a Stalwart with narrow bands, nothing like your bands.

[southpaw52]

his pen’s name is entirely in keeping with the practices of the 1940s; somewhat martial in nature. It is a name that is a little difficult to apply, though, as the differences in the US and Canadian/UK production lead to confusion. The fact that both variants occupy the same low rung in each line up doesn’t help.

Life Magazine, late 1942 – all the difference seems to lie in the plating (click to enlarge)
The US model has a single cap band, and is distinct from the Starlet 352V, which is of course a short “lady’s” version of the same thing. The Commonwealth version has two bands, to distinguish it from the Dauntless 302, which one takes to be a lower-priced version of almost exactly the same pen with a single band; the catalogues I’ve found with the Dauntless in it don’t have prices. The fact that the Dauntless looks like the US Stalwart tends to make people swap the names; I struggled along for quite some time thinking my Canadian Stalwart was in fact a Dauntless. It seems that in the US, the difference between the two models comes down to plating (extrapolating from an ad that apparently predates both model names), with the less expensive Dauntless sporting chrome rather than gold trim.
To repeat for clarity’s sake, then:
Two bands, non-US imprint is a Stalwart.
One band, US imprint is also a Stalwart as long as it’s got gold on it.
Of course, to say anything about Waterman’s catalogue with this much confident emphasis is asking for trouble. Check in often for updates.
At this end of the price range, there are some cost-cutting measures. The fit of the rivets that hold that clip down is to me the most obvious “discount” indicator on these pens; they frequently look like someone was being trained how to use the machine. The points are essentially still the same ones that Waterman had been making since the turn of the century, so there’s nothing wrong in the writing.
Production Run: c. 1942 – c. 1953.
Cost When New: $3.50 (for modern value, try this calculator).
Size: 12.8 cm long capped, 15.5 cm posted, 11.4 cm uncapped.
Point: 14k gold. There don’t seem to be any Taperite models.
Body: Celluloid.
Filler: Lever, capacity approx. 1.0 ml.

Waterman Stalwart, Canadian variant. The big dumb unboxed lever, similar to that on the Champion, suggests to me that this is a late model, but don’t take that as a fact.


If you are relying on the preceding information to win a bet or impress a teacher, you should read the site’s scholarly caveat. Remember, this is the internet, and it’s full

[rcburgin]

See page 102 of Max Davis & Gary Leher's Waterman book.

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Thank you. I don't have this book and can't find it in the library. Maybe I'll try to ask if any of my friend has it.

PM me & I'll send a picture of the page. Lehrer prints the pens to the actual size. Length & appearance seem to match the 2 Lady size.

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