Deoxidizing BHR

[kirchh]

It's not clear to me that the fading we're discussing is, in fact, a result of oxidation, or that the discolored material is an oxide. Perhaps Todd (Farmboy) can educate us. My impression has been that the primary mechanism at work is the breaking of crosslinks in the elastomer that had been entrapping the particles of pigment, thus allowing those particles to be lost.

Todd?

--Daniel

[PaulS]

quote ............... "You can't "deoxidize" BHR. No such process exists. You don't need another word to replace re-blacking." If you re-read my post Deb., you'll see that is exactly the point I was making.
Many folk - although no doubt not yourself - have fallen in to the trap of using the word 'deoxidizing' to describe the act of removing the brownish/greenish crud, when in fact as was pointed out some comments back that word is wrong in the BHR pen sense, so I'm not disagreeing with you.

The quote from Hawk was simply .......... ""The term 'deoxidation' is being used on this thread and used improperly. The term is used in the making of steel by removing excess oxygen."" He's was correct regarding our pens - although I'm not clever enough to know about making steel - neither am I clever enough to know if kirchh's comments are valid. Oxidation is (possibly) what happens - and to get rid of it people have been saying deoxidation, when they should have been saying re-blacking.
Can't remember whether I've seen the word re-blacking being used in a general sense - is it adequate? or is there a sense that the absence of the 'de' prefix doesn't quite tell us enough?
I'm game for re-blacking - let's promote the word and see if we can change pen terminology for ever, and make it a little more accurate.

[Deb]

I think re-blacking is okay. Or maybe we could try "reducing pen diameter to restore colour." Or perhaps "valuing blackness over chasing." Just so long as we don't use pseudo-scientific terms to disguise what it is we are actually doing to the pens.

[Hawk]

To be fair, the word which was suggested as being used incorrectly, was 'deoxidation, and not 'oxiidation' as picked up in the last couple of posts. It is true that when we remove, by whatever means, the surface degradation, we aren't deoxidizing the BHR - we're simply removing material that according to Marshall & oldfield 'has become brittle and lost suphur' - the crud perhaps.
If 'oxidized' is what happens to the BHR (and I'm not arguing that) on exposure to light (presumably the uv part) - then it might be thought by the less well educated, like me, that if we 'deoxidize' the surface we are simply undoing the first process - hence the perceived act of 'de-oxidizing' - so whilst incorrect, the term deoxidizing has fallen into common and informal use by the technically ignorant.

So, we still do need a word to replace 'deoxidizing' - a word which is accurate in its description of the process of removal of the degraded oxidized surface material.

If one slightly (or whatever) removes the discolored surface, that is removing oxidation. i.e. exposing a new surface. Why not simply call it 'the removal of oxidation'. This thread has mentioned quite a few different coatings to apply on the BHR surface, thereby covering the oxidation. A mention of bleach or other liquid chemically removes the oxidation, possibly without removing as much as mechanical removal. The next thing to consider using this method is the short term and/or long term effects on the rubber due to a chemical reaction between the product and the BHR.

[kirchh]

If one slightly (or whatever) removes the discolored surface, that is removing oxidation

Do we know if the faded surface is oxidation?

--Daniel

[PaulS]

I think Deborah's suggestion of using 're-blacking', does provide some good direction for a more correct word, but Deb's alternatives, imho, are too awkward to use

Re-reading the Marshall & Oldfield manual, they don't in fact use the words 'oxidation/deoxidation' - and really only make the point that this stuff degrades on exposure to light. They also add .......... "Washing can reduce surface acidity but there is no reversal of degradation."

Shows how difficult it is to settle on a technically correct term, and it would be easier to have a single word to use rather than a phrase - so in the absence of some genius help, I'm still in favour of Deb's 're-blacking'.

[Fermata]

I think that Eric Wilson has a technique for reblacking pens, the end result is to turn the clock back to when the pen was new.

Its personal choice perhaps, some people like a BHR pen to show its age, others like it was made yesterday. Another of my hobbies is selling very old and very good wine (not always the same!) to China and Japan. They look for pre 1960 wine in old scabby and dusty looking bottles with lables that look like they were from 2017. A 1950s bottle of Chateau Neuf du Pape will sell for $3000 in those markets, $150 at home.

Thankfully we in the pen world havent reached that level of obsession.

In terms of natural reblacking, someone once told me to just use the pen and the natural oils in your skin will enhance the natural color of the pen.

I also meddle with vintage cars and some people use products with castor oil on the degraded tires and rubber parts on an old car or motorcycle and that really works, and better than commercially available products.

[FredRydr]

I really haven't a need for a single term or word to describe the various methods of treating discolored hard rubber. As stated above, there are different techniques, and the different words used to describe each are more specific than one term that, on its face, tends to apply to one technique more than another. Why foment confusion? Is it suggested that the pen community only refer to all these processes as "reblackening," notwithstanding those red, cardinal, blue & etc. hard rubbers that never were black in the first instance? This is silly.

As for me, I always understood the term "deoxidiser" in regard to our hard rubber pens never meant the removal of oxygen; it meant the removal of discolored hard rubber. If olive-colored hard rubber on my black and my mottled and woodgrain red and black hard rubber pens is not oxidised hard rubber, and the name of the substance created to remove that offending stuff is therefore misnamed, well...take it up with the manufacturer! As for steel production, I haven't a clue, but it doesn't matter anyway.

YMMV, etc.

Fred

[KrazyIvan]

I was researching the subject and came across a gun forum. The handles on some pistols are HR. someone uses "Armor All" to re-blacken the scales. I might actually try this on a small no-name ring top Franken pen I have. Oh, and the same thing came up about leaving them as is as the gun was an antique.

[Farmboy]

I believe there is more than one process at play. Loss of colorant (carbon black), oxidation of the sulfur cross links, and oxidation of the double bonds in the polymer backbone all play a role.

None of these is what I would call a reversible reaction.

You either add something black or you remove material to get to fresh material below the damaged layer.

??Does the HooGoo react with both red and black rubber in a mottled pen the same or is the black eaten away more?

I'll see if I have a paper or two on the subject later.

Putting oil (or ArmorAll) on the surface is just changing the reflectivity making it look dark.

more later

[RayCornett]

Contact Mark Hoover on Facebook. He has a deoxidizer that I swear by. Completely organic. You place the part in the solution, which is a thick sticky concoction, for about 20 minutes, wipe it off and rub vigorously, and in most cases it comes out pitch black. If not, you put it back in for about 10 more minutes. It is not a dye. I swear by the stuff.

[Wahl]

As a collector of vintage pens, I leave my more valuable HR pens alone.

But, if I come across cheaper pens which are brown/greenish (originally black), I will gladly clean, re-blacken and oil them.

[Cob]

Yes Hoover's product does work without removing material, so imprints and chasing remain as they were before the process.

I do not understand the "twenty minutes" claim. I have to soak the parts at least overnight, sometimes for two days; a friend who uses the product says the same. This Waterman's 52 was Café-au-Lait beforehand with an olive-green cap; now it is 70% cocoa bitter chocolate:Waterman's 52.jpg

Cob

[kirchh]

Yes Hoover's product does work without removing material

I believe its primary mechanism of action is the removal of material.

--Daniel

[FredRydr]

Yes Hoover's product does work without removing material

I believe its primary mechanism of action is the removal of material.

You can actually see the migration of olive-colored matter into Mark Hoover's clear solution from the surface of the hard rubber. I'm not going to taste it to determine what it is.

[Zisi]

If we are not applying additional material (dye) then we’re taking some material off. I don’t see any other way that the colour is changing. I’ve used Hoover’s product, it’s great on some pens - very messy. It takes material off. Just like using a liquid abrasive would, or using micro mesh would. I tried those too, and they work fine as a method on pens without any imprints or chasing. I’ve tried the pmnr9 dye too, it requires skill that I don’t possess - worked well on one pen and never after.
No one method is best, IMHO. I use a mix for different functions. Hoover for pens with imprints or chasing, dye on cap crowns and blind caps, micromesh on pens without imprints or chasing.

[Farmboy]

Why color them black in the first place?

[Jon Szanto]

Why color them black in the first place?

Mick says so.