Custom-made pens - costs and experience

[Empty_of_Clouds]

@ilikenails


Here's an example of someone making a point based on not reading carefully.

ilikenails said:

The poster you are replying to was quite clear in saying that people buy pens and show them on social media. If you're not deliberately distorting his words, you need to read more carefully.

Jon Szanto said:

Ignore that if you like, but people share bespoke pens there, and makers often show a new pen they are proud of.

Just sayin' …

[Jon Szanto]

Now to the pleasure of working with a custom pen maker. Yes, prices do vary some but not by much. I really enjoy working with various crafts persons on pens. It is fun to pick out materials and the form of your new pen. The best work closely with their clients and make modifications to the clients desire which can be the diameter at certain points, length, form, threads and hardware. That makes it fun. If I only cared about how a pen wrote I would have all black pens but I like different pens for different moods or even seasons. As to nibs, well there are plenty of good nibsmiths to work with. Many custom pen makers will make a pen to fit a particular nib and feed that you may have. The feel, balance and size of a pen are also very important and those are the things you get to work with dealing with a custom pen maker. I find that I rarely use any of my commercial pens anymore. I can not afford to purchase a custom pen often but I save up and definitely enjoy the out come and process of getting a pen from various fountain pen makers.

Thank you. This is precisely what I have in mind when I think of a common custom pen client, and mirrors much of the attitude and interest shown by the people I actually know who buy them. Indeed, it is a very special experience.

[Jon Szanto]

Your points are taken, although they do not have the weight of validity that you assume for them here.

Being that they cover a broader base of observation, they certainly carry more validity than yours, which was the only point: a narrow slice yields weak claims.

And lucky you (truly) that you can both afford something that is genuinely bespoke, and that you can at least have a civil conversation with a pen maker. To a large extent I agree with what you are saying but as neither of the two points in the preceding sentence apply to me it is somewhat moot.

I've saved and worked hard to get to this point, one needn't do it to enjoy pens. I'm just finally at a point where I've decided I want to do it at least once. Literally every pen maker I've spoken with, in person or through other channels, have been delightful people, eager to create something that another person will use with a joyful spirit. I don't find being civil with these people a challenge at all.

ps. I am also on the subreddit for fountain pens - a quick check reveals there were only 6 or 7 threads showing custom pens for all of 2018. No doubt you'll be pleased to know that I only watch and don't get involved (not that you know my handle of course).

"A quick check" might be in error, I don't know. What I do know is that it is a topic that gets discussed in many places, much more than you assert in your original post. Reddit is just one of those places. If the number of threads is on the low side, it doesn't surprise me, as a core portion of the reddit commuinity are students and new pen people, usually working with very limited budgets. In spite of that, any posting about a pen that was made for a particular person will get a lot of views, and ideas are planted.

Custom pen work seems to be a growing business/interest/craft. Pen ownership is remarkably robust at the moment, with a big swell in younger users. I expect that the coming years will be good ones for those artisan/craftspeople who choose to make a unique pen for another individual to enjoy.

[Jon Szanto]

@ilikenails


Here's an example of someone making a point based on not reading carefully.

ilikenails said:


Jon Szanto said:

Ignore that if you like, but people share bespoke pens there, and makers often show a new pen they are proud of.

Just sayin' …

The part you bolded was an addendum. It doesn't take away from the fact that the primary posting of pen photos and experiences is from the end user/buyer. Their point still stands.

Honestly, I've contributed all I need or want to at this moment. Time is not available for point-by-point back-and-forth. Let the readers from here on out sort it all out. I just didn't want bespoke pens, their owners, and their makers to get a bad presentation.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I just didn't want bespoke pens, their owners, and their makers to get a bad presentation.

Perhaps you also didn't want to believe that not everyone gets treated well either. Just because my experiences don't mirror yours does not make them untrue or distorted.

I've saved and worked hard to get to this point, one needn't do it to enjoy pens. I'm just finally at a point where I've decided I want to do it at least once. Literally every pen maker I've spoken with, in person or through other channels, have been delightful people, eager to create something that another person will use with a joyful spirit. I don't find being civil with these people a challenge at all.

I wasn't bemoaning your position, I was sincere. On civility - kind of hard when you are the only one turning up with an olive branch. If you've learned anything about me it should that I own my mistakes and I will try to rectify them. Pity the same cannot be said of others.

[AzJon]

A few things:

FPG is really not a vibrant community, not really. It's the same group of 20-ish people making up 90% of the dialogue on the site. I see far more custom (or at least hand-turned by independent makers) pens on Reddit than I do pretty much anywhere else unless I follow them directly on IG or what have you. My impression of this forum is there is a sort of "meh" level of excitement when it comes to custom pens. Why that is, I'm not sure, but culturally, this place isn't great for custom pen show-and-tell unless it was a small batch run from established pen makers (see limited runs from Franklin-Christoph).

Flashy acrylics or alumilite pens just don't have traction here for reasons unknown. Maybe the association with acrylic pens and Indian pen makers and any pen sold for more than $30 had better have something going for it other than being acrylic. Which, on that note, the price most of us can pay for a hand turned Indian pen is borderline criminal. The real discussion on custom (or handmade pens) shouldn't be on how expensive they can be when you talk face-to-face with the maker, whose livelihood you're supporting, but how we should be paying more for those Indian pens. Yes, there are some qc issues in those pens, but for the materials, skills, and cost, we should be paying significantly more for the pens we so cheaply source from India and (to an extent) China. I will (and have) paid more for a product when I know that cost is due to the maker being able to make a living from the product (example: Technivorm Moccamaster coffee maker. $350 drip coffee maker. Insane price? Maybe. Hand assembled in the Netherlands by people not living for slave-wages ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

Sorry if this is getting ranty, but I'm friends with a lot of artists (painters, writers, musicians, ceramicists) and they all have their skills and abilities undervalued. Many of whom get taken advantage of and end up selling pieces for just north of what it cost them to make. If the problem comes from what it costs for a custom piece or the piece isn't 'bespoke' enough for you, get a lathe or a CNC or whatever and do it yourself. Making a pen, that looks nice and works well, even if its just a black tube with a steel nib, takes skill.

The joy you take in it has to be beyond its simple function and that joy is deeply personal. My favorite coffee mug was expensive and personal not because it was custom, but because of its association to a person and place that brings me joy. I love my Visconti because it is a beautiful work of art (and we all know Visconti is a favorite whipping boy of the FP community) and I, and only I, enjoy it. My Montblanc is my favorite, used ever single day, workhorse pen, but is another brand that people love to hate on.

The price is not the value.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

That is interesting because I take a completely different view of Indian made fountain pens. They were once sold for a good price in the local market and occasionally overseas to people who made the effort to track them down. They were then aggressively pushed onto to the Western stage by a third party and the prices were driven up dramatically. This, in my view, took the pens out of the "interesting to explore and affordable" range. I have also heard, anecdotally, that local prices have not changed. Not sure how true that it is, but it is likely seeing as it would be directed by the market. Now the interest in Indian pens has really slackened off. Saturation perhaps, but this is also what happens when people only see jam today.


I wouldn't normally quote myself but a bit earlier I did say:

However, at $200+ the value just isn't there for me...

Basically the price to value ratio is skewed (for me at least), because what I get for that price is generic CDC stuff mostly and not handmade. So, in that respect perhaps there should be some kind of distinction.

[AzJon]

That is interesting because I take a completely different view of Indian made fountain pens. They were once sold for a good price in the local market and occasionally overseas to people who made the effort to track them down. They were then aggressively pushed onto to the Western stage by a third party and the prices were driven up dramatically. This, in my view, took the pens out of the "interesting to explore and affordable" range. I have also heard, anecdotally, that local prices have not changed. Not sure how true that it is, but it is likely seeing as it would be directed by the market. Now the interest in Indian pens has really slackened off. Saturation perhaps, but this is also what happens when people only see jam today.


I wouldn't normally quote myself but a bit earlier I did say:

However, at $200+ the value just isn't there for me...

Basically the price to value ratio is skewed (for me at least), because what I get for that price is generic CDC stuff mostly and not handmade. So, in that respect perhaps there should be some kind of distinction.

If the current price of Indian made pens (FPR, Noodlers) is around $30 and that is an increase in cost, that is a travesty.

I've gone through this thread from the beginning and I still can't really figure out your argument regarding value is, as you never establish what value is to you other than a price point. So lets go off of price as a value for any given product.

I dabbled in silversmithing for a while and a normal but what should I charge?! equation for a piece is 4 x raw cost + wage/hour to create. Using that basic equation we can take your $15/rodstock price point and plug it in. Our Basecost before anything else is $60 from materials alone. This, of course, does not account for clips or any other accessories added to the pen. Assuming the highest minimum wage we have in the States ($15/hr) and apply that to, lets say 2 hours for a pen, from beginning to end. So, for just the rodstock and making the pen, not including the nib, or trim, or testing inkflow, or polishing, or photographing, or uploading to a sellers website, or selling fees... We are looking at $90, out the gate, for a basic tube with a nib. $90 being the minimum any pen done custom is going to cost. Add into that a lathe (CNC or otherwise), a workspace, backstock that is just sitting there doing nothing but being a negative cost, the skill of the pen turner, the fit and feel of the actual pen, and then brand notoriety, and... I think you get the point.

So what you are inherently arguing is that you don't value the time, skills, or materials of someone making pens in general.

This whole thread is really akin to saying you really love high-end French cuisine, but can't believe how much it costs when its just a chef heating things up in a kitchen. I mean, can you imagine the audacity of marking up all that food that you could just cook at home for a fraction of the cost? And if you want to, sweet. I encourage it. Go find a lathe (or someone with one), get some rod stock, program up a pen design, and just whip up a pen on a CNC.

I look forward to seeing your result.

On a tangential note: this was posted to Reddit today: https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpen...lement_a_snow/

but yeah, just 6-7 custom/bespoke pens in the last year.

Edited for some formatting.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

The original price of Ranga pens (for example), before the big marketing thing, was similar to what you are quoting. Now, look to pay anything from $70 and up. And this is entirely due to this cynical marketing to the West.

Why is it 4 x the raw cost? Never heard of that before.

As for the rest, you are ladling on the overstatement for no obvious purpose. Equating an off the shelf design/ with off the shelf nib and no trims, with high-end French cuisine is a massive stretch. In the former I am not getting a high-end pen, in the latter I am getting high-end food.

I think you are all missing the point. In the $200 range there seems little that is truly handmade, and much that is stock or generic body designs/nibs. The only design choice is the material. To add further design changes dramatically jacks up the price, at which point I may well agree with you about value.

On a tangential note: this was posted to Reddit today: https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpen...lement_a_snow/

but yeah, just 6-7 custom/bespoke pens in the last year.

Sorry bud, I searched. I only saw 6-7 threads posted specifically about custom pens last year. That someone posted one today signifies nothing.

[AzJon]

The original price of Ranga pens (for example), before the big marketing thing, was similar to what you are quoting. Now, look to pay anything from $70 and up. And this is entirely due to this cynical marketing to the West.

Why is it 4 x the raw cost? Never heard of that before.

As for the rest, you are ladling on the overstatement for no obvious purpose. Equating an off the shelf design/ with off the shelf nib and no trims, with high-end French cuisine is a massive stretch. In the former I am not getting a high-end pen, in the latter I am getting high-end food.

I think you are all missing the point. In the $200 range there seems little that is truly handmade, and much that is stock or generic body designs/nibs. The only design choice is the material. To add further design changes dramatically jacks up the price, at which point I may well agree with you about value.

On a tangential note: this was posted to Reddit today: https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpen...lement_a_snow/

but yeah, just 6-7 custom/bespoke pens in the last year.

Sorry bud, I searched. I only saw 6-7 threads posted specifically about custom pens last year. That someone posted one today signifies nothing.

Ranga is the only Indian maker priced accordingly, imo. Their ebonite is a little better than others, but I think they are where hand-made pens should be.

4 times the raw cost because you mark that stuff up. Do 3 times if you want, the pen would still be $75. Or double, if you're a cheapskate, and it's $50 out the door.

"off the shelf design", it's a pen. There are only so many ways you can make a tube interesting.

We are still running into the problem that you absolutely have not clarified, in any way, what you value in a pen. What gives a pen value to you?

I'm not missing the point. If I were to go all out for a custom pen, a truly one-of-a-kind custom pen, I would expect to drop $1000 on it, easily. That includes materials, the time it takes to collaborate with the pen maker, the features, and the final fit and finish. This is a not unreasonable expectation. (specific reference here: https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpen...e_to_get_a_mb/)

You ever try to find a bespoke high-end wedding ring? Those cost multiples more than the off-the-shelf stock.

Oh, and by the way Bud, these links are involving custom/hand-made pens from the last month alone on Reddit by literally typing "custom pen" into the search field for the sub and sorting by "New"

https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpen...er_custom_pen/

https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpen...om_kraken_pen/

https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpen...ent_for_story/

https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpen...bining_custom/

https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpen...ee_custom_pen/

You were saying?


To bring it back to my artist friends: I've seen people like you denigrate what they do and their work over and over again. Questioning the "value" of a cup or a plate or a painting or whatever. So I'll say it again for the folks at the back: You do not respect or value the work, skills, or knowledge of a crafter because you don't think those skills have any value based on your personal, subjective OPINION of what the value of something is.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Yes, I was saying. I used the same search terms, but I also discarded maker marketing and people saying they had ordered; concentrating on those that actually had a pen to show. This was mentioned earlier in the thread.

So, let me get this right, you are saying I will pay 4 x the material costs for something I could buy myself at a quarter of the price. Is that some sort of scam?

Don't agree with you on Ranga. Wasn't impressed with the quality of either the manufacture or the ebonite itself. At least not at $80 a pop.

I'm not missing the point. If I were to go all out for a custom pen, a truly one-of-a-kind custom pen, I would expect to drop $1000 on it, easily. That includes materials, the time it takes to collaborate with the pen maker, the features, and the final fit and finish. This is a not unreasonable expectation.

And I agreed with you on this point.

We are still running into the problem that you absolutely have not clarified, in any way, what you value in a pen. What gives a pen value to you?

You know, now that you press me on it, I actually have no idea.

Of course it must write and be able to do so to my requirement, but that is just about the nib.


My apologies for ranging about in this subject area. I hadn't realised that deep down I don't have any genuine investment in any particular pen or design. That's a sobering thought.

I will not raise the subject again.

[AzJon]

So, let me get this right, you are saying I will pay 4 x the material costs for something I could buy myself at a quarter of the price. Is that some sort of scam?

As the saying goes, "It's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business."

Nothing you buy, at any level, is being sold for the cost of materials. A Noodler's #6 steel nib is for sale from Goulet Pen Company for $6.

Here we have marine grade stainless steel sheet (not sure what grade a nib is made of, but marine is going to be very corrosion resistant) at $11.98/sq ft for .018"/.25mm thick steel (website indicates that this is .7439lbs or 337 grams.) (website here: https://www.onlinemetals.com/merchan...=325&top_cat=0)

A nib is less than a gram, but for calculation sake, lets say a steel #6 nib is 1 gram. The cost of that steel, rounded to $12/337grams is $0.04 (rounded up)/gram. So, for material cost, that nib is worth $0.04, but being sold alone at $6/nib or $6/gram. That is a mark up of 150x for a Noodler's nib (note: Goulet branded Jowo nibs are $15/nib). 4x markup sounds like a bargain now, eh? Also bear in mind that those nibs can be machined by the hundreds per day. (video attachement on Lamy pens being made here: https://youtu.be/2jf3lbhQR6I?t=98). And you're saying that a 4x markup on materials is a scam?

If the nib is what you value most, above all else, then you need to get to a pen-show and hopefully sit down and talk with a nibmeister, face to face, about what you want your nib to do. That service will also not be cheap because you are engaging an expert in their craft.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Not exactly. If I was buying a pen that took a Jowo nib there is no point me paying 4x the price for said nib when I can buy it at the original price. Does that make sense? That's how I understood what you had said about the 4x thing. Same goes for the rods. I can buy them directly from (say) Bear Tooth woods for $15 a rod. Why then should I pay 4x this price. Again, I'm not entirely sure if I am understanding your position on this. (Not that this matters much as it is just one of the seemingly vast number of things I have no clue about).

Seems to me that a saving could be made by providing the materials personally. Or would that mark-up still be applied?

If the nib is what you value most, above all else, then you need to get to a pen-show and hopefully sit down and talk with a nibmeister, face to face, about what you want your nib to do. That service will also not be cheap because you are engaging an expert in their craft.

I am similarly not sure how this is achieved because:

1. I would have to have a nib that I felt needed to be meistered.
2. From what I have heard the nibmeisters are usually fully booked out by locals weeks or months in advance. Don't know if that is true.
3. Sending a nib and trying to describe in words would, given my lack of skill in communication, probably not work well.
4. I would have to go to a pen show, and that's not very likely.

However, I do understand your suggestion in the abstract.

[Chemyst]

Seems to me that a saving could be made by providing the materials personally.

This would almost certainly increase the final price you pay. You're essentially taking a routine service at relatively small cost and turning it into a bespoke discussion.

Unless you are able to provide the exact materials that the artisan is used to using, then research, verification and equipment set-up are required. These per hour charges, by artists and experts, almost certainly cost more than any savings you've made in raw materials.

For instance, I know how popular dyes, biocides and surfactants work and which ones play well together. If you want a new ink, I can use my pre-existing inventory and research to gin you up one with minimal effort beyond some reference work and the actual physical blending. There is some charge for raw materials, but most of what you are paying for is my time working with you to get the colour and characteristics just right.

If instead you want a new ink but want me to use some random chemicals you've purchased, now I have to learn the solution chemistry of your components. Maybe your dye only works at a certain pH or reacts with some biocides. Maybe you bought adulterated chemicals from a grey-market batch that failed QC, so any published information on pure versions is unusable. Maybe your chemicals react with my bottling equipment materials. These are all things that need to be looked at.

For ease of discussion, let's say the "marked-up" material cost is $48 for a 2 litre ink run, the hourly rate for analytic work is $150 and customer consultations are $75/hr. If you were to kick around and find the necessary chemicals at "wholesale" for $12, you'd need to be able to prove to me (with Certificate of Analysis, MSDS, &c...) that they were equivalent to my usual base materials in less than half an hour, otherwise the $36 in "savings" evaporates. If the chemicals you brought are not my usual base materials or are of suspect purity/provenance then it better be real simple to resolve, because $36 pays for about 15 minutes of analysis time. Most of my instruments take at least that long to get up and standardised. There go your savings....

Similar things are required if you want some random material (mammoth ivory, pretty rod stock you saw online, &c.) machined.

As soon as you engage the artisan to use materials that you're supplying, you are almost certainly paying more than if you allowed them to use the medium they have experience with.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

This I understand. When I talk about using materials that I've bought myself I am talking about common materials (well-known pen acrylics and alumilite and bog-standard Jowo nibs) that the maker is already highly familiar with. That's why I don't get the mark up.

[Chemyst]

This I understand. When I talk about using materials that I've bought myself I am talking about common materials (well-known pen acrylics and alumilite and bog-standard Jowo nibs) that the maker is already highly familiar with. That's why I don't get the mark up.

Maybe you can, have you asked?

If you can prove the rod stock material you bought is the correct brand, material, diameter, passed QC and isn't too old, then some makers might let you ship it to them.

You're still going to probably not save very much after postage and consultation costs. Maybe $10-30 dollars on a commission that is several hundred dollars?

It's like corkage fees. Bring your own wine if you want, but you're still going to get charged to use the staff and equipment. Worth it if you really want to have a specific wine with your meal, but not much of a cost savings.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

The guy who made the two pens I have charged me for the flat cost of the rods - one was from Bear Tooth (I think) and the other was a Conway Stewart material.

Ah well, it doesn't really matter. This direction is clearly not one I should get involved with at all.

[Voiren]

Consider it as a way for the maker to cover all the other little costs that are hard to account for otherwise. Sawblades, abrasive material, wear and tear on equipment, all the unpaid hustle to get the commission in the first place. You have to include it somehow, and multiplying your base materials cost is one way to do that. Maybe a hedge against precious metal fluctuations, which change faster and in both directions which is unusual for most craft materials.

This kind of breakdown also very much varies from maker to maker - do they charge multiples of materials, or do they add a fixed cost on top of their time, or do they add on another hour?

(For new makers in anything that was previously a hobby, how to price your work is absolutely the hardest thing. And it pisses off the established makers when the newbies come along selling at prices that are so low no one could make a living. Which they mostly do because they feel they aren't good enough yet, or they just want the cost of materials back and nothing else, and not so much because they're trying to undercut people who do it fulltime).

I've seen the discussions a lot in areas other than penmaking.

[AzJon]

Consider it as a way for the maker to cover all the other little costs that are hard to account for otherwise. Sawblades, abrasive material, wear and tear on equipment, all the unpaid hustle to get the commission in the first place. You have to include it somehow, and multiplying your base materials cost is one way to do that. Maybe a hedge against precious metal fluctuations, which change faster and in both directions which is unusual for most craft materials.

This kind of breakdown also very much varies from maker to maker - do they charge multiples of materials, or do they add a fixed cost on top of their time, or do they add on another hour?

(For new makers in anything that was previously a hobby, how to price your work is absolutely the hardest thing. And it pisses off the established makers when the newbies come along selling at prices that are so low no one could make a living. Which they mostly do because they feel they aren't good enough yet, or they just want the cost of materials back and nothing else, and not so much because they're trying to undercut people who do it fulltime).

I've seen the discussions a lot in areas other than penmaking.

Agreed. I was told that I should sell something at 4x markup and base the time on how long it should take. If a ring takes an hour to make by someone very skilled, charge for an hour, even if it took you 3 hours to do because mistakes were made and so on.

[Runnin_Ute]

I was part of a group buy on FPN a while back - first post about it in April 2017. A Indian maker (Guider) was approached with the idea to do this. About 30 people or so ultimately participated. Most of us picked out our blanks from exoticblanks.com. I chose a blank pattern called "Copper Mountain". The maker told us that two blanks per pen would be needed. Mine were $8.95 each - or about $20 including shipping to the person coordinating here in the US. Everything was shipped to the maker in India. It sat in Customs for an extended period. (30+ days maybe?) I chose a Schmidt B nib with CC filling system rather than Eyedropper. Some people already had a nib unit they wanted to use and had theirs machined to fit same. (Bock/Jowo) I received my pen (along with five or six others) in May 2018. The rest didn't get theirs until probably October 2018. It cost me probably $80 all in roughly. My share of shipping costs, materials and the labor to produce. Even though one of the participants was in India, even he had trouble communicating with Mr. Rao (the man at Guider. Different dialect I believe). Yes, the pen is one of his standard models, but because of the blank I chose there will be few if any of the same pen out there.

IMG_20180514_134359_953 by Brad Merrill, on Flickr

1526321785875 by Brad Merrill, on Flickr