"Harsh Inks"

[grainweevil]

On the other hand ever have toothpaste in your mouth a really really really long time?

No, but I've had sac fragments in various "evil" inks for more than year in a more or less vain attempt to validate the claims these guys make on a regular basis. The only conclusion I could really draw from all that effort was that there might be something to it, but it turns out to be pretty damned hard to melt latex sacs with fountain pen inks when you're trying to. Maybe it's a "watched pot never boils" kind of thing.

I've wondered about this, and, well, a sac in use is not wholly submerged in ink - one side of it is exposed to the air all the time, and some of the inside depending on ink level, sloshing about (technical term), and so forth. Could this make a difference?

I worry we may have unintentionally biased information to work with simply because the first, and I suspect, only question a repair person asks when faced with a problematic sac failure is "What ink did you use?" Does anyone ever ask "What pen flush did you use?" or "What's the chemical analysis of the tap water in your area?" Do we know how ink changing (effectively mixing, because you never get a pen 100% clean) or fallow periods between inkings might have an effect? It seems to me a lot of very definite conclusions are drawn on anecdotal evidence and entirely natural and understandable human bias. So while I'm certainly not wedded to defending every ink from criticism, I do find it less than satisfactory to condemn them with the information we currently have.

[stub]

because the first, and I suspect, only question a repair person asks when faced with a problematic sac failure is "What ink did you use?"

Let the record show my restorer asked and discussed many of those other questions. How do you clean your pen, where did these pens come from, who last restored them etc & co. There was a very long email back and forth about it. We concluded that nothing could be concluded for certain but one thing clearly couldn't be ruled out. The use of Iroshikuku ink was possibly the cause.

It seems to me a lot of very definite conclusions are drawn on anecdotal evidence and entirely natural and understandable human bias.

Speaking only for myself:

I think I was pretty careful on both these threads (why did we need a new thread?) NOT to draw "definite conclusions"

If I have a bias it is perhaps towards the brand I have specifically named as a possible culprit in my case b/c I would say that Pilot is far and away my most beloved modern brand and probably third only to vintage Sheaffer and Parker.

I trust and love Pilot implicitly. I would genuinly love to be found wrong in this specific case.

YMMV-ily yers,

S

[TSherbs]

On the other hand ever have toothpaste in your mouth a really really really long time?

No, but I've had sac fragments in various "evil" inks for more than year in a more or less vain attempt to validate the claims these guys make on a regular basis. The only conclusion I could really draw from all that effort was that there might be something to it, but it turns out to be pretty damned hard to melt latex sacs with fountain pen inks when you're trying to. Maybe it's a "watched pot never boils" kind of thing.

Your experience with Asa Gao is encouraging in its consistency, however. Once I read it, I started thinking of using the 1ml or so of Asa Gao I have left in a sample vial for another run. It might work this time. OTOH, I don't care anymore, especially since I regard Asa Gao as being pretty far down the list of favorite blues. I actually sold my bottle.

maybe you're the guy who has posted before on this that I read about

[mhosea]

I've wondered about this, and, well, a sac in use is not wholly submerged in ink - one side of it is exposed to the air all the time, and some of the inside depending on ink level, sloshing about (technical term), and so forth. Could this make a difference?

Yes, it could make a difference, and I considered doing that. Because I had no way of knowing whether two sacs originated in the same manufacturing batch and needed a valid control for each sac in the experiment, it would have been necessary to remove the sac's end and divide the tube in half. Then one end would need to be plugged somehow to restore the tube's ability to hold ink. I tried using an air-soft pellet, but it didn't work. What I needed was a celluloid dowel (or some such) that I could cut into plugs. Then the plug could be installed with a little shellac. But then I said, screw it. I'm not buying a bunch of sacs for this. Tossing sac trimmings into sample vials and checking on them is what I'm willing to do for the benefit of the community in this matter. It exceeds what everyone else seems willing to do by leaps and bounds, and maybe a critic will be inspired to "to do it right". Anyway, I hoped that some sacs would melt and thereby obviate the need for better simulations. That didn't happen. Well, I got one and couldn't replicate it. That is an interesting result. The control fragment did not melt in that case. You might be tempted to conclude that this rules out that the sac was defective, but I'm not so sure that conclusion is even valid since sacs might be vulnerable to exposure along a continuum rather than just being good or bad.

Another thing that happens in real pens is changing inks. Also cleaning (sometimes with ammonia), often incompletely. This increases the number of variables in play. It might explain the one clear melting case that I had, as it's possible I accidentally switched it from one ink to another during one of the inspections: on several occasions I removed the fragments, rinsed them (simulates cleaning), inspected them for signs of trouble, and put them back into the vials.

[mhosea]

maybe you're the guy who has posted before on this that I read about

I posted updates here about it, some on FPN. Probably search for mhosea and Noodler's.

For me the upshot was to limit my ink choices in vacumatics, use PVC sacs in snorkels, and use whatever ink I wanted lever fillers. The reason for the difference is that vacs and snorkels are a pain to service and don't provide a way to detect an issue as it develops. Lever fillers are ridiculously easy to service (if the section has been removed at least once in recent years), and you can tell when things are starting to go south, so there's no point in being careful unless you just can't be bothered to learn how to service them.

[fountainpagan]

At the french forum someone had left Diamine Green Black (lovely ink) inside her Waterman 52, for one month. The ink corroded the sac!!! So, Diamine Green Black may be agressive to ink sacs.

[TSherbs]

maybe you're the guy who has posted before on this that I read about

I posted updates here about it, some on FPN. Probably search for mhosea and Noodler's.

For me the upshot was to limit my ink choices in vacumatics, use PVC sacs in snorkels, and use whatever ink I wanted lever fillers. The reason for the difference is that vacs and snorkels are a pain to service and don't provide a way to detect an issue as it develops. Lever fillers are ridiculously easy to service (if the section has been removed at least once in recent years), and you can tell when things are starting to go south, so there's no point in being careful unless you just can't be bothered to learn how to service them.

Thanks for these efforts, Mike.

[grainweevil]

Tossing sac trimmings into sample vials and checking on them is what I'm willing to do for the benefit of the community in this matter. It exceeds what everyone else seems willing to do by leaps and bounds, and maybe a critic will be inspired to "to do it right".

It is indeed more than most, including myself, are willing to do, and I for one appreciate it, Mike. I'm simply interested in what other factors may be in play, and airing the thought in hopes it might provoke further fruitful investigation.

Stub, I'm not pointing fingers at you or anyone. Just throwing out some musings that rattle about in my brain whenever the "evil ink" debate comes up.

[Paddler]

Over the years, I have restored several tens (60 or so) of pens, most of which use sacs, and have saved the sac trimmings in the cigar box where I keep new sacs and shellac flakes, etc. I have identified an "evil ink" and have kept a bottle of it just to aggravate myself. I am going to drop those trimmings into the bottle of devil's ink and see what does betide. I will keep all youse informed of the outcome. It should take only a year or so.

[Armstrong]

Looks like I need to find some Sheaffer ink then. Thanks folks.

[pajaro]

Diamine green-black used to be my favorite color. I used to like the Pilot Ironowhatever turquoise. I used to like red and purple. I suppose I could like them in converters or cartridges.

[stub]

Looks like I need to find some Sheaffer ink then. Thanks folks.

I honestly like Skrip Blue and Skrip Blue Black isn't bad either.

[fountainpagan]

Diamine green-black used to be my favorite color. I used to like the Pilot Ironowhatever turquoise. I used to like red and purple. I suppose I could like them in converters or cartridges.

I love it. It is great for drawing. I only use it in cartridges and converters, or cheap chinese pens.

[FredRydr]

There are several variables that must be controlled for such a test. Use new sacs to eliminate age issues. I suggest the large ones for plenty of inside surface area. Then use each type of sac (latex, silicon, etc.) and from the different manufacturers in order to account for variations in content or process. Then choose the inks. How many sacs of inks are we up to, now? Do we add a humidifier to replicate a breast pocket? Perhaps Pen World would pay for an article and photographs to subsidize this project. (Or, the sac and ink industries might put pressure on Pen World to boycott any such coverage! )

Fred

[Woody]

I don't know, but I suspect pH is not the issue one way or the other except insofar as it may impact what happens when switching between acidic and alkaline inks without adequate cleaning. I had Ballistol (pH supposedly in the 8-8.5 range) in a small dropper bottle with a black rubber bulb until I noticed that the bulb had swelled to 2 or 3 times its original size and felt "sticky". It seems to me more likely that this is the kind of action that causes sacs to fail. The question which nobody has yet answered with respect to fountain pen inks is why.

As for saturation, in my dryout experiments with various Noodler's inks, and a few others, I did not find that the increasing concentration did anything. Historically, the saturation of inks was more at issue with respect to ink flow and "clogging", not so much with sac failure. I think in this context it would be a correlation only, not the causative factor. There may be more of this, that, or the other that gets added to the ink in order to achieve good flow when saturation is high.

Hey Mike. Weren't you doing some time sensitive, long range experiments on clips of sacs suspended in different inks? Perhaps someone else, but I thought it was you.

[Woody]

Looks like I need to find some Sheaffer ink then. Thanks folks.

I honestly like Skrip Blue and Skrip Blue Black isn't bad either.

Waterman is extremely safe too.

[stub]

Hey Mike. Weren't you doing some time sensitive, long range experiments on clips of sacs suspended in different inks? Perhaps someone else, but I thought it was you.

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/fo...fied-this-sac/

[stub]

Looks like I need to find some Sheaffer ink then. Thanks folks.

I honestly like Skrip Blue and Skrip Blue Black isn't bad either.

Waterman is extremely safe too.

..., since I like Waterman Blue I am good to go anyway.

oh Stub. You seemed so reasonable until this bit about Waterman Blue...

. .
.

[mhosea]

Hey Mike. Weren't you doing some time sensitive, long range experiments on clips of sacs suspended in different inks? Perhaps someone else, but I thought it was you.

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/fo...fied-this-sac/

That was what started it all, the extraordinary claim that Noodler's Black had "obviously" melted a latex sac in a matter of minutes. There were some updates here:

https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread...l=1#post171334

https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread...ex+noodler%27s

[TSherbs]

Looks like I need to find some Sheaffer ink then. Thanks folks.

I honestly like Skrip Blue and Skrip Blue Black isn't bad either.

Waterman is extremely safe too.

..., since I like Waterman Blue I am good to go anyway.

oh Stub. You seemed so reasonable until this bit about Waterman Blue...

. .
.

Hey, different strokes