Open Letter to New FPGeeks

[penwash]

FPGeeks is suffering from atrophy and apathy.

Again, the content of the website used to be a spark for interest in new pens and inks and a way to see pens in action. Dan's approach was sincere and objective and down to earth. Our membership is mostly older, and mostly driven by sales traffic. Thread-based content is not really possible with a lack of long-term membership growth. The grapes are aging on the vines. Maybe a nice wine, but the bottle will empty.

In terms of tone, when I first came here, I too was met with cantankerous hostility, the way certain people defend the sandbox they are comfortable in. The block feature has become my greatest aid in this regard, and I have persisted, but I totally get why others--many of them females--have exited and left the ruder boys to their own devices. FPGeeks has become more of an echo chamber of late, and my guess is that it will go the way of many other small forums that lose their raison d'etre.

So... as Jon said, there is always a chance to start something good as long as this forum still existed.

As you said, you've persisted this long. Why not be one of THE SEVEN?

(Also, I've been here a while and I've never seen any harsh treatment towards either gender by the other. Bickering, yes, but that's normal for any volume of public but remote communications where real intent could be masked and misinterpreted.)

[TSherbs]

....As a side note, I have not noted any misogyny here; I am female in sex and gender.

If this is a reference to what I wrote above, I did not mean to suggest that I have witnessed misogyny. I have not. I was referring to female posters who have stopped posting--as they have subsequently told me--because they disliked the tenor of some of the threads and/or just did not feel safe in participating. Plenty of members have mentioned this kind of feeling; men, too. There have been some women who have not felt personally safe out of fear of predatory male behavior, but that happened behind the scenes and is certainly not limited to FPGeeks. All our experiences may vary.

[TSherbs]

(Also, I've been here a while and I've never seen any harsh treatment towards either gender by the other. Bickering, yes, but that's normal for any volume of public but remote communications where real intent could be masked and misinterpreted.)

What might be considered "normalized" behavior on a small, un-moderated forum might not be acceptable or preferable for some posters. After all, how many folk want to hang out in a room of "bickering"? I, for one, can't stand it. I NEVER do it on facebook, and I really dislike reddit for the amount that I encounter there. FPN is the only other forum that I participate in, and I prefer its greater extent of moderation which keeps the bickering tone down. I prefer that "normal" to this "normal," although I participate on both (more there).

[VertOlive]

....As a side note, I have not noted any misogyny here; I am female in sex and gender.

If this is a reference to what I wrote above, I did not mean to suggest that I have witnessed misogyny. I have not. I was referring to female posters who have stopped posting--as they have subsequently told me--because they disliked the tenor of some of the threads and/or just did not feel safe in participating. Plenty of members have mentioned this kind of feeling; men, too. There have been some women who have not felt personally safe out of fear of predatory male behavior, but that happened behind the scenes and is certainly not limited to FPGeeks. All our experiences may vary.

Gosh. Didn't realize it went on around here. That's a shame...

[penwash]

(Also, I've been here a while and I've never seen any harsh treatment towards either gender by the other. Bickering, yes, but that's normal for any volume of public but remote communications where real intent could be masked and misinterpreted.)

What might be considered "normalized" behavior on a small, un-moderated forum might not be acceptable or preferable for some posters. After all, how many folk want to hang out in a room of "bickering"? I, for one, can't stand it. I NEVER do it on facebook, and I really dislike reddit for the amount that I encounter there. FPN is the only other forum that I participate in, and I prefer its greater extent of moderation which keeps the bickering tone down. I prefer that "normal" to this "normal," although I participate on both (more there).

Nope, you may have misinterpret my using the word "normal".
I am not saying it's normal as in "Okay to have and we have to just accept it" in my above sentence.
I am saying it's normal as in "High probability of occurrence" in any volume of public but remote communications (i.e forums, and I meant any forums not limited to FPGeeks only).

[TSherbs]

(Also, I've been here a while and I've never seen any harsh treatment towards either gender by the other. Bickering, yes, but that's normal for any volume of public but remote communications where real intent could be masked and misinterpreted.)

What might be considered "normalized" behavior on a small, un-moderated forum might not be acceptable or preferable for some posters. After all, how many folk want to hang out in a room of "bickering"? I, for one, can't stand it. I NEVER do it on facebook, and I really dislike reddit for the amount that I encounter there. FPN is the only other forum that I participate in, and I prefer its greater extent of moderation which keeps the bickering tone down. I prefer that "normal" to this "normal," although I participate on both (more there).

Nope, you may have misinterpret my using the word "normal".
I am not saying it's normal as in "Okay to have and we have to just accept it" in my above sentence.
I am saying it's normal as in "High probability of occurrence" in any volume of public but remote communications (i.e forums, and I meant any forums not limited to FPGeeks only).

fair enough

but these problems do not occur with the same frequency or tenaciousness across all fora

and people make choices about what frequency and perniciousness of toxicity they are willing to endure

as well they should

[TSherbs]

....As a side note, I have not noted any misogyny here; I am female in sex and gender.

If this is a reference to what I wrote above, I did not mean to suggest that I have witnessed misogyny. I have not. I was referring to female posters who have stopped posting--as they have subsequently told me--because they disliked the tenor of some of the threads and/or just did not feel safe in participating. Plenty of members have mentioned this kind of feeling; men, too. There have been some women who have not felt personally safe out of fear of predatory male behavior, but that happened behind the scenes and is certainly not limited to FPGeeks. All our experiences may vary.

Gosh. Didn't realize it went on around here. That's a shame...

yes, indeed, a shame, and I appreciate your saying so

but I will go further

it is fucked up, bullshit, unconscionable, and sick

For some women it is probably hard to see the (apparent) gender makeup of the majority of their profile visitors, especially the visitors with names you might never have seen make a post. Even as a male, I try never to look at my list of profile visitors, and I avoid making visits as often as is possible (short of simply ending my membership, which would "take care" of everything). The whole thing weirds me out; I try to empathize with those who might feel even more vulnerable, for whatever reason.

[Jon Szanto]

but these problems do not occur with the same frequency or tenaciousness across all fora

Absolutely correct: there are many places that are far, far, far worse than anything this place has seen. I can say this with authority after having been involved in online discussion groups since the mid-1980s.

and people make choices about what frequency and perniciousness of toxicity they are willing to endure

Agreed: people can make choices. One is to use a term like toxicity in a place that can't hold a candle to the base levels of discourse on the many, far worse places on the net. I've seen disagreements on this forum but toxicity? No, I think that is projecting, and constantly referencing it in that way is both promulgating urban myths and almost begging for it to occur. The people here are far better than that.

[VertOlive]

....As a side note, I have not noted any misogyny here; I am female in sex and gender.

If this is a reference to what I wrote above, I did not mean to suggest that I have witnessed misogyny. I have not. I was referring to female posters who have stopped posting--as they have subsequently told me--because they disliked the tenor of some of the threads and/or just did not feel safe in participating. Plenty of members have mentioned this kind of feeling; men, too. There have been some women who have not felt personally safe out of fear of predatory male behavior, but that happened behind the scenes and is certainly not limited to FPGeeks. All our experiences may vary.

Gosh. Didn't realize it went on around here. That's a shame...

yes, indeed, a shame, and I appreciate your saying so

but I will go further

it is fucked up, bullshit, unconscionable, and sick

For some women it is probably hard to see the (apparent) gender makeup of the majority of their profile visitors, especially the visitors with names you might never have seen make a post. Even as a male, I try never to look at my list of profile visitors, and I avoid making visits as often as is possible (short of simply ending my membership, which would "take care" of everything). The whole thing weirds me out; I try to empathize with those who might feel even more vulnerable, for whatever reason.

Being female, I guess we take that risk when we go online. I've noticed some female members have left the forum, but have assumed it was because they have moved on. You make it sound far more sinister...I can't help but wonder what, exactly, is going on?

[Jon Szanto]

but I will go further

it is fucked up, bullshit, unconscionable, and sick

May I suggest you go one step further and actually say what you are talking about instead of referencing it in vague terms and background references?

Here's the thing, T: I can't think of a *single* person that I interact with on this board, people that I write to or comment on their posts or who do the same back to me, who would countenance for even one nanosecond behavior that would be untoward to another member. I don't know of a single person here who would go out of their way to harm another, through words or deeds, and I feel very certain that none of them would stand by and let that kind of activity occur. Even though Eric never ever comes around, the one saving grace is that he does seem to act quickly if people report ill behavior on the board. I can think of three examples, possibly, over about a 5 year period where a troll repeatedly harrassed people, and Eric took care of the situation. I appreciate that very much.

So while you seem to have big dossiers of evidence against who knows how many miscreants behaving badly - correct me if I'm getting this wrong - towards female members of the board, I haven't seen or heard any direct example or evidence. It makes it impossible to do anything at all about, and what you are ending up doing is smearing an entire forum full of people with accusations that may or may not have *any* merit.

My point? The people here are, to a very significant degree, good people. Unless you want to get specific, you are doing a disservice to people by impugning the good nature of the forum as a whole. I find that no less shameful than any mystery behavior you are alluding to.

[Jon Szanto]

I've noticed some female members have left the forum, but have assumed it was because they have moved on.

I could make a list of men who are no longer here that would be quite long. Should I assume they were sexually harrassed, or whatever unspoken offences have otherwise occurred are the reason for their leaving? We are almost in the territory of "have you stopped beating your [wife/husband/child/pet/etc]" now.

[TSherbs]

Being female, I guess we take that risk when we go online. I've noticed some female members have left the forum, but have assumed it was because they have moved on. You make it sound far more sinister...I can't help but wonder what, exactly, is going on?

Not all posters, especially women, are comfortable with that "risk," the same way that they are not comfortable with it in the workplace or community at large. There should not be any risk at all. No one should be harassed or mistreated in any way. I know that these are easy platitudes to say and not mean, but I mean them. I believe them. It is my job to protect children in my school from all abuses and harassment, even if our efforts are bound to be incomplete and imperfect. It is still the goal.

I don't have any specific recent examples that I can attest to. It was some months ago that I heard about some of this and was made privy to some back-channel conversations primarily among female posters about their anxieties and worries and experiences. I did not witness any, I was not party to any evidence, and I did not question the sincerity of the feelings and observations. So, as to "what is going on," I don't know. Maybe nothing right now. But it takes no great leap of imagination nor any stretch of empathy and adult understanding of the internet, to recognize that women (and men, of course, but less so) are the targets of aggressive and suggestive or even predatory trolls. And that this has (or if you would rather hold back on your credulity, "might") happened at this site is, as others note, not very surprising. How often? Who knows? These are, of course, often the kept secrets of the ashamed and afraid or simply indifferent and gone.

My only point was to call attention to an aspect of the tone and aggressive behavior around here that I have heard of. If some wish to dismiss such possible behavior as rumor or wild suggestion, then, by all means, have at it. I am not mentioning it to argue or prove. It is what it is, regardless of what we say about it. And our responses are what they are, regardless of our certainty of the facts. If we only empathize when we have all the facts that the aggrieved might have, then we--I would posit--are being quite tight with our empathy. I say this to the community, and not specifically to you, VertOlive. I appreciate your responses and contributions.

[dfo]

WOW: TSherbs, you have taken this thread wayyyyyy-offfff-topic.

Jon's point still stands. You lack specific information needed to make the bold claim that there is aggressive behavior towards women occurring on this forum. By mentioning it, you are arguing that it exists here on this forum. Can you at least name one thread? Please do so, as we need to call out injustice when we see it. I do the same in my research, daily job ,and in my interactions in life. The fact is that gender/sex/sexual-orientation is not apparent with/for most posters on this forum.

Being female, I guess we take that risk when we go online. I've noticed some female members have left the forum, but have assumed it was because they have moved on. You make it sound far more sinister...I can't help but wonder what, exactly, is going on?

My only point was to call attention to an aspect of the tone and aggressive behavior around here that I have heard of. If some wish to dismiss such possible behavior as rumor or wild suggestion, then, by all means, have at it. I am not mentioning it to argue or prove. It is what it is, regardless of what we say about it. And our responses are what they are, regardless of our certainty of the facts. If we only empathize when we have all the facts that the aggrieved might have, then we--I would posit--are being quite tight with our empathy. I say this to the community, and not specifically to you, VertOlive. I appreciate your responses and contributions.

[TSherbs]

WOW: TSherbs, you have taken this thread wayyyyyy-offfff-topic.

Wait, are you serious?

You lack specific information needed to make the bold claim that there is aggressive behavior towards women occurring on this forum. By mentioning it, you are arguing that it exists here on this forum. Can you at least name one thread? Please do so, ...

I am worried that you have not read my posts above. I have said, repeatedly now, that this was back channel through profiles and private messages. I said that I have seen no misogyny, etc, on any threads. Nor did I ever say so. Have you read these posts carefully?

as we need to call out injustice when we see it.

Absolutely.

The fact is that gender/sex/sexual-orientation is not apparent with/for most posters on this forum.

I disagree. Gender is often "apparent," and often this does not matter to predators back channel. They take their chances after they look for clues and cues. Again, I think that you are not understanding what I wrote above. My apologies if I was unclear.

And if you are serious about this being "off topic," then I will gladly say that I don't care. Being off-topic is a lesser evil than that which I am trying to acknowledge here.

[Farmboy]

As a public service announcement, FarmBoy is a bit of a misnomer, I'm too old and hairy to be a boy.

[VertOlive]

I'm really stumped. I have held years long written correspondence with dozens of the women on this forum and have heard not one syllable regarding these goings on, and happenings on this forum are often a topic of our letters.

I need some objective facts about this evil you're trying to acknowledge here--let's shine a light on it and put a stop to it if it's truly happening. Facts matter.

Otherwise, please don't assume also that the community is lacking in empathy or that women who remain here are comfortable with seeing others abused. Perhaps we're mostly just surprised that things have gotten to where they're "F'd up, BS, unconscionable, and sick" without our noticing?

[stub]

WOW: TSherbs, you have taken this thread wayyyyyy-offfff-topic.

These kinds of threads are catnip to TSherbs.

I honestly think it's the main reason he stays here. Any time he sees a meta 'state of the forum' discussion thread (way too many on here these days) he jumps at the chance to say how much more he likes FPN and what is wrong with FPG. It's a little wierd. Just play in the sandbox that suits you.

[Jon Szanto]

As a public service announcement, FarmBoy is a bit of a misnomer. I'm too old and hairy to be a boy.

[dfo]

Wait, are you serious?

This thread is about bumping of sales items. Enough said. If you want to talk about other issues totally unconnected to the OP, please start a new thread. I would love to engage in what you have to say as I view it as important.

[Pterodactylus]

Don‘t get carried away, this thread become more and more ridiculous, misogyny, don’t felt personally safe, fear of predatory,...-.

What he/she/it (don‘t know because it is a anonymous Internet forum) is talking about?

For sure this has nothing to do with our FPGeeks pen forum.
Nobody cares about the gender of somebody else (or even know it).
Nobody threaten others and for sure not personally (would also be difficult in a anonymous pure virtual forum where members are located all over the world).

Now I miss a moderator who stops such myth/rumor creation.