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Thread: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

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    Default Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    I am fairly new to the forum scene and I have seen quite a bit of vitriol towards the above. I have some of Noodlers Inks and pens and I like both especially his blacks. I can understand others may not but why is the criticism so aggressive and personal? Especially as he seems to do all he can to make his products affordable.

    For myself I admire small artisans and businesses and try to support them

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    Senior Member Dreck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    It's been covered ad nauseum in the forums. If you use the search function, you'll probably find more than you care to know. If I recall correctly, one of the threads had a title almost identical to this one
    Χάρις ἐσοι καὶ εἰρήνη, ἀδελφὸς σου ἐν Χριστῷ

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    As Dreck said, this is a topic that has been discussed many, many times over. There are reasons for some of the strong opinions, in no small part to the strong opinions of Mr. Tardiff himself. I would suggest good web searches and forum searches to find some of the background on all of this.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    Ok did not want to muck rake was just curious. As I say I like his products

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    FP Enthusiast Emeritus mhosea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    No worries, just weariness. Here's a long thread: http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread....Noodler-s-Ink?
    --
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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    I don't think animosity is really the right word; after all, Nathan and Noodler's is not significant enough to warrant that much attention.
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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    Quote Originally Posted by matteob View Post
    Ok did not want to muck rake was just curious. As I say I like his products
    The search function is your friend. There's a proverb on why God gave us 2 each of eyes and ears and only one mouth.
    Χάρις ἐσοι καὶ εἰρήνη, ἀδελφὸς σου ἐν Χριστῷ

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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    Quote Originally Posted by matteob View Post
    Ok did not want to muck rake was just curious. As I say I like his products
    Short answer: the pens fall apart quickly (personal experience) and the inks melt pens from the inside out (other folks' experience).

    I have no personal animosity towards the proprietor but would suggest he invest just a little more in research, development, and quality control.

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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    Are you talking about ink sacs here and is it only the bay state blue ink? I use noodlers but in pens with metal, plastic and ebonite bodies, converters and feeds with no issues. I have heard apocryphal stories of it perishing rubber feeds so i might have to try another ink, Diamene Sapphire Blue for example in the vintage pens with sacs. I hear that is pretty water resistant.Nathan's pens of course are all celluloid, ebonite or acrylic with ebonite feeds and don't suffer issues.

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    FP Enthusiast Emeritus mhosea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    Quote Originally Posted by matteob View Post
    Are you talking about ink sacs here and is it only the bay state blue ink? I use noodlers but in pens with metal, plastic and ebonite bodies, converters and feeds with no issues. I have heard apocryphal stories of it perishing rubber feeds so i might have to try another ink, Diamene Sapphire Blue for example in the vintage pens with sacs. I hear that is pretty water resistant.Nathan's pens of course are all celluloid, ebonite or acrylic with ebonite feeds and don't suffer issues.
    I'll try to summarize, as I know that researching this stuff takes a lot of time if you weren't part of the discussions as they evolved over the years.

    Baystate Blue has been reported to chemically melt SOME plastic feeds. I've seen photos of Sheaffer plastic feeds (cartridge pen) and the feed of a Pilot VP that do appear to have been chemically damaged by it. Earlier there were reports of Lamy feeds deteriorating, but my understanding was that this occurrence is convoluted with a bad batch of Lamy feeds and not specific to Noodler's inks. As I was not involved in any of those discussions at the time, my understanding on that should not be given weight. At any rate, nobody understands why many people can use BSB with plastic feeds and never have a problem, but once in a great while there is damage that seems to be chemical in nature. It is a chemistry and materials mystery.

    No other Noodler's Inks have been accused of melting feeds.

    Noodler's inks in general have been accused of causing premature latex sac failures and (specifically, AFAIK) deterioration of Pelikan rubber piston heads. Here again, nobody can explain why this only happens occasionally. When I work with latex gloves on and expose them to some particular solvents, they fail very reliably and quickly. That's not the way it goes down with Noodler's Inks. In my experience, you simply cannot take a latex sac trimming, expose it to Noodler's Ink, and melt it on demand, not in hours, days, months, or even a year. I've had one trimming go gooey in a controlled experiment, but only one of many. I couldn't make it happen again.

    Other than staining in some cases (hardly specific to Noodler's), there have been no reports of damage to celluloid or hard rubber anything. I did read one claim that a particular Noodler's ink had deteriorated the (sterling silver) breather tube in a Parker 51, but it did not come from a person who restores 51's, and my experience with that is, because of Parker Superchrome ink or whatever, those things are frequently eroded and "about to go" if the pen got used back in its day. Finally, AFAIK there has been exactly one report of Noodler's Ink melting an old PVC sac, but that was probably a coincidence, IMHO. I have never heard of anyone installing a new PVC sac, using Noodler's Ink, and seeing it fail. Latex, yes, PVC, no.
    Last edited by mhosea; January 8th, 2017 at 12:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    I'm a newbie so thanks for updating me, shame about some of the blunt replies. It hardly makes a new member feel welcome I have just heard loads of scare stories. Only been on the forums a few weeks and only recently started coming back to fountain pens again, mainly because I like tactility of then and in Noodlers I thought I had found a safe nom iron gall/pigment ink in X Feather that would work on cheap paper in the same way as the Uniball Gel pens ai used to carry.
    Last edited by matteob; January 7th, 2017 at 02:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    Welcome. Regarding feeling welcome, you are indeed welcome!: Just pretend you sat down at a big dinner table with a family that knows each other and is getting grumpy or being direct in front of you from the start rather than being all polite at first. Good folks here. Plain spoken. But good.
    Fortibus es in ero

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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    What "aggressive and personal animosity"? I have never seen this.

    I only see this here against some individual posters, or by some members against the leadership of FPN. THAT 'aggressive and personal animosity' I have witnessed many times here. But against Noodler's, nope.

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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    I recently had a newish sac of unknown material melt secondary to el Lawrence but I still use noodlers ink.

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I only see this here against some individual posters, or by some members against the leadership of FPN. THAT 'aggressive and personal animosity' I have witnessed many times here.
    As opposed to passive-aggressive commentaries like the above, which you do at regular intervals. T, I've always given you wide berth to cry about the way things are here, and wax rhapsodic about the way things are on FPN, but after a while it really becomes tedious. Always anonymous acusations like the above, never acknowledging the long-standing reasons that discussions are generally more free-wheeling, rarely-moderated, and potentially unhinged at this forum.

    I used to see pretty screed-oriented posts about Nathan at FPN, but that was quite a few years ago. Then they started clamping down and censoring posts, and it all vanished, and now gives the appearance that hunky-dory is the name of the game. So, in effect, one doesn't get a true picture of how a broad audience feels about his products, and his general approach to marketing those products. Certainly one of the more polarizing personalities/businesses in the niche area of fountain pens, and I think he rather enjoys that status. I may not like some (or many) of his inks, avoid the pens, and disagree with his politics, but I actually adore his willingness to be his own person. Precious few are willing to take that risk anymore.

    ETA: And, yeah, what mhosea said. Nailed it in a nutshell.
    Last edited by Jon Szanto; January 7th, 2017 at 07:45 PM.
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    FP Enthusiast Emeritus mhosea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    I used to see pretty screed-oriented posts about Nathan at FPN, but that was quite a few years ago. Then they started clamping down and censoring posts, and it all vanished, and now gives the appearance that hunky-dory is the name of the game. So, in effect, one doesn't get a true picture of how a broad audience feels about his products, and his general approach to marketing those products.
    That is the way I see and remember it, also.
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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    Quote Originally Posted by matteob View Post
    I'm a newbie so thanks for updating me, shame about some of the blunt replies. It hardly makes a new member feel welcome I have just heard loads of scare stories. Only been on the forums a few weeks and only recently started coming back to fountain pens again, mainly because I like tactility of then and in Noodlers I thought I had found a safe nom iron gall/pigment ink in X Feather that would work on cheap paper in the same way as the Uniball Gel pens ai used to carry.
    You are definitely welcome; please don't take blunt replies to a subject some of us may feel 'bluntly' about personally.

    Also; please, please, please get some samples of KWZ inks - if you like supporting independent ventures and hand crafted products, in addition to enjoying fantastic inks, you will be truly missing out without some KWZ in your ink collection.

    http://kwzink.com/language/en/manufa...standard-inks/
    (no affiliation)


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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    Thanks I will certainly give them a look. They do have some lovely colours!

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    Quote Originally Posted by matteob View Post
    Thanks I will certainly give them a look. They do have some lovely colours!
    He's right, the KWZ inks are a really strong contender these days. One area where they really make an impression is a wide variety of iron gall inks. Also, within the last year has seen the entry of Robert Oster inks, which are routinely blowing me away. Beautiful and well-behaved.

    So many inks out there today!
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
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    Default Re: Why the level of animosity to Noodlers and Nathan Tardiff.

    Here's an in-depth illustrated article about Noodlers. I can see why there is controversy about it.

    Fred

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