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  1. #21
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copying

    I think your discussion is very fair, AzJon.

    At the end of the day, provided they are not misled by counterfeits, people know what they are buying. If people want a Jinhao 599, as I did, they won't mistakenly buy a Safari or vice-versa. If Chinese copying of Western products annoys people that's all to the good. They can write about it here and it may help to outweigh all those sales posts.
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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Copying

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    I think your discussion is very fair, AzJon.

    At the end of the day, provided they are not misled by counterfeits, people know what they are buying. If people want a Jinhao 599, as I did, they won't mistakenly buy a Safari or vice-versa. If Chinese copying of Western products annoys people that's all to the good. They can write about it here and it may help to outweigh all those sales posts.
    I should mention, this isn't something limited to strictly to Chinese pens. If someone was making blatant copies in Minnesota as a lower quality item at a cheaper price, I would be similarly dismayed.

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    Senior Member Sailor Kenshin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copying

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    As an aside, I have one of those Wing Sung Safari lookalikes. Safaris don't work well for me - something to do with the length of the nib and the section is uncomfortable for me - but the Wing Sung works better.
    Asiding to your aside, I enjoy the hooded Jinhaos, which seem to write better than the non-hooded, and I have no qualms about taking them outside the house (moat of my fountain pens aren't allowed to roam).
    My other pen is a Montblanc.

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    Default Re: Copying

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    dam, all I can say to you is that counterfeits are a different matter.

    "What I was driving at is the fact that the makers of knock-offs and counterfeit items, in many cases, are sometimes one and the same. At least that is what it looks like to me. "

    OK. Fair enough, but that's just your surmise. You have no proof for what you say.

    I was talking about copying. If you want to talk about fakes, which is an entirely different matter, I suggest you start another thread.

    Seems I've offended you in some way, I don't know why. Anyway, I never said I had proof. The Chinese market being what it is, it would be pretty hard to prove either way. However, considering: the market for fountain pens, the capital and tooling involved in producing pens and nibs and converters, it seems logical that a factory which churns out copies of well known pen models may also bring to market pens which exhibit the actual brand name of the thing they are copying. It's not that far-fetched. That is all I was saying and I don't think I was hijacking the thread by pointing this out.

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    Senior Member grainweevil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copying

    Quote Originally Posted by AzJon View Post
    ...nearly identical to an untrained eye.
    Honestly, I think this applies to both the Safari and Safari-a-likes, and the Montblanc and Montblanc-a-likes. Speaking for myself, I still have to pause to check whether I'm picking up a 146 or 1911L.

    I wonder if the difference in how you view them could be partially because the MB-a-Likes have been doing it longer so you're simply used to it being offered by other companies, whereas the Safari shape has only quite recently become available to be emulated owing to the design patent expiration? (At least, so I've read) I don't know, just a thought.

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    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copying

    You haven't offended me. It takes a bit more than that!

    In writing the original post, I stuck to material that anyone can check for veracity. You seem to want to make assertions that are incapable of proof. Also, you seem determined to assert that Jinhao, Hero or whoever in China are turning out counterfeits. Okay, prove your point. Put up or shut up.
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    Default Re: Copying

    Great discussion! Of course, the MB is also a derivative design, something that is often overlooked.

    On the emulation affecting sales part: if a peep cannot afford an MB, and is in the kinda position where that level of outlay will most always be problematic, then MB are not losing a customer if that peep goes and buys a Sailor 1911. My point is that generally if a peep can afford and wants a pricey piece then they will go for it. They are less likely to deliberately go for a copy, in my opinion natch.

    Good job nobody patented the wheel!

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  11. #28
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copying

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Kenshin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    As an aside, I have one of those Wing Sung Safari lookalikes. Safaris don't work well for me - something to do with the length of the nib and the section is uncomfortable for me - but the Wing Sung works better.
    Asiding to your aside, I enjoy the hooded Jinhaos, which seem to write better than the non-hooded, and I have no qualms about taking them outside the house (moat of my fountain pens aren't allowed to roam).
    I haven't had any of them but I have a metal Hero 1588, hooded with a very fine point. Very enjoyable writer. That's one of the great benefits of these cheap pens, that I can throw one in my bag when I go out and if I lose it along the way it's no great loss, whereas my Swans and Onotos don't leave the house.
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  12. #29
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copying

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunderson View Post
    Great discussion! Of course, the MB is also a derivative design, something that is often overlooked.

    On the emulation affecting sales part: if a peep cannot afford an MB, and is in the kinda position where that level of outlay will most always be problematic, then MB are not losing a customer if that peep goes and buys a Sailor 1911. My point is that generally if a peep can afford and wants a pricey piece then they will go for it. They are less likely to deliberately go for a copy, in my opinion natch.

    Good job nobody patented the wheel!
    Excellent point!
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  13. #30
    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copying

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    I love you too, Jon.

    However, you are reading into what I said something that the history doesn't support. Many of the third tier copiers of the Duofold were producing poor quality pens at a low price to gain on the popularity of the Parker. It was their intention to make sales for themselves at Parker's loss, because people wanted a pen that looked like a Duofold but couldn't afford one. Sound familiar? I don't see any difference between what was happening in the USA in the twenties and thirties and what the Chinese manufacturers are doing now.
    Sorry, I missed this response earlier and I had to go beat myself up at the gym for a couple hours. Yes, that is a good point. I would have been unhappy with them as well. A lot of it is simply how closely they are trying to mimic the 'real deal' and I wonder how often, if at all, Parker/Sheaffer/etc went after them in a legal way.

    Anyhow, Jon just doesn't like people who play that way.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

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    Default Re: Copying

    Quote Originally Posted by AzJon View Post
    I should mention, this isn't something limited to strictly to Chinese pens. If someone was making blatant copies in Minnesota as a lower quality item at a cheaper price, I would be similarly dismayed.
    I have a friend who runs a well-respected, medium-sized company making percussion instruments. They are sold all over the world, and many items in his line are considered not only top quality for use in professional situations (often orchestras) but that he has been innovative in design and conception. One particular line has been a go-to instrument for nearly two decades. He recently pointed out that a major musical instrument maker has blatantly and almost identically copied these instruments and is unapologetically marketing them. They are as close to a fake as can be but they are so big and have such deep pockets that they don't give a fuck, they are just going to rip off his product line and screw him, they'll bury him financially if he tries to make a move. I am *not* certain what his patent status is in all this.

    I happen to think that sucks, massively.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Copying

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    You haven't offended me. It takes a bit more than that!

    In writing the original post, I stuck to material that anyone can check for veracity. You seem to want to make assertions that are incapable of proof. Also, you seem determined to assert that Jinhao, Hero or whoever in China are turning out counterfeits. Okay, prove your point. Put up or shut up.
    Whoa! Stick to your guns if you want. I’ll stick to mine.

    My evidence is obviously circumstantial.

    If well paid teams of investigators and lawyers have a hard time identifying the people behind these practices and proving copyright infringement in China, it would be hard for me to do the job for them.
    Old article about this here.

    Believe what you will. I’ve seen and held fake Sonnets and Baoer 388: often you've got interchangeable parts, same kinds of defects, most likely produced in the same factory.

    I’ll believe my lying eyes, thank you. And that will be my homage to Groucho Marx.

    With that, I will now cede to your kindest of demands and “shut up.”

  17. #33
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copying

    Sheaffer, in particular, was extremely litigious. Unfortunately, their defence of their patents extended, at times, to squashing the oposition. Waterman and Parker were fast on the legal draw, too. Of course it helped to ensure that they benefitted from their ingenuity but others were ingenious too. The ingenuity of some of the smaller manufacturers lay in producing a pen that looked like a Duofold or a Balance while avoiding laying themselves open to the rapacious lawyers of the Big Four. And thank goodness for that, or there would have only been a Big Four, instead of the splendid variety that we enjoy today.

    In any field of human activity, there are a few that excel and originate and they are admirable but that's not all of the story. There are the others who follow in their footsteps and emulate, but they put their stamp on their work as well.
    Regards,
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  19. #34
    Senior Member AzJon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copying

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunderson View Post
    Of course, the MB is also a derivative design, something that is often overlooked.
    True, to an extent. Part of this comes fro MB being in the game long enough to have been around before there were other pen colors other than black.

    The black cigar shaped pen is obviously nothing new, but it evolved concurrently with other designs and just stuck it out. I'm not entirely sure if GeHa or Sentaor or Diplomat pens were copying MB, per se, but that style of piston-filler-with-ink-window was a very popular design style in Germany. Again, all of those had their own unique elements that were unique enough to be considered distinct original works.

    Also to consider: (and this is partly in response to grainweevil) Sailor has likewise been around for a long time as a pen company. They've been around since before it was reasonable or profitable to import a MB to Japan or China. The solution is to make a pen that is very similar, but still distinct, for the Asian market. Now, if Sailor or Pilot made their pens with large white circles on top and started saying something about it being the snow capped Mt. Fuji....

    For example, Platinum having 3776 (height of Mt. Fuji) stamped on their nib is an obvious nod to MB and their 4810 (height of Mont Blanc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AzJon View Post
    I should mention, this isn't something limited to strictly to Chinese pens. If someone was making blatant copies in Minnesota as a lower quality item at a cheaper price, I would be similarly dismayed.
    I have a friend who runs a well-respected, medium-sized company making percussion instruments. They are sold all over the world, and many items in his line are considered not only top quality for use in professional situations (often orchestras) but that he has been innovative in design and conception. One particular line has been a go-to instrument for nearly two decades. He recently pointed out that a major musical instrument maker has blatantly and almost identically copied these instruments and is unapologetically marketing them. They are as close to a fake as can be but they are so big and have such deep pockets that they don't give a fuck, they are just going to rip off his product line and screw him, they'll bury him financially if he tries to make a move. I am *not* certain what his patent status is in all this.

    I happen to think that sucks, massively.
    That sucks. I can only hope that the musicians that know and care enough to support the real innovators and participants in their craft/hobby/industry.
    Last edited by AzJon; November 18th, 2017 at 02:22 PM.

  20. #35
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copying

    Quote Originally Posted by dam View Post

    My evidence is obviously circumstantial.
    Your evidence, clearly, is non-existent, and that's my problem with you, dam. You insist on maligning perfectly respectable manufacturers without a shred of evidence. I know perfectly well that there are fakes around but there is no reason to think that they are coming from Chinese manufacturing companies which put their names to their work.

    But you assert that it is so, so it must be so.
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    Default Re: Copying

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dam View Post

    My evidence is obviously circumstantial.
    Your evidence, clearly, is non-existent, and that's my problem with you, dam. You insist on maligning perfectly respectable manufacturers without a shred of evidence. I know perfectly well that there are fakes around but there is no reason to think that they are coming from Chinese manufacturing companies which put their names to their work.

    But you assert that it is so, so it must be so.
    From my experiences in China, most of the true counterfeits were items or parts of items being stolen direct from the manufacturer. I bought a $8 pair of "RayBans" that were obviously made with real RayBan parts, but put on non-RayBan frames. Gucci bags, Versace, Rolex, all taken directly from the manufacturers warehouse and reassembled elsewhere. Anyone that has gone to a night market in China can attest to the rampant business of knock-offs and counterfeits.

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  23. #37
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    Default Re: Copying

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Sheaffer, in particular, was extremely litigious. Unfortunately, their defence of their patents extended, at times, to squashing the oposition. Waterman and Parker were fast on the legal draw, too. Of course it helped to ensure that they benefitted from their ingenuity but others were ingenious too. The ingenuity of some of the smaller manufacturers lay in producing a pen that looked like a Duofold or a Balance while avoiding laying themselves open to the rapacious lawyers of the Big Four. And thank goodness for that, or there would have only been a Big Four, instead of the splendid variety that we enjoy today.

    In any field of human activity, there are a few that excel and originate and they are admirable but that's not all of the story. There are the others who follow in their footsteps and emulate, but they put their stamp on their work as well.

    I remember reading a while back about the extent that Sheaffer went through to protect their pens from being counterfeit including shellacing the section to the barrel and using a serial number under the nib, but they really went after the distributors of their pens. Lamy did the same move recently by no longer allowing online vendors to sell their pens (except a few grandfathered in) to protect their product and only allow them via brick and mortar stores. Pen companies don't have the funds, and places like eBay have neither the ability or resources to police counterfeits well enough for anyone to do anything other than just suck it up and deal.

    I do wonder, however, if the presence of counterfeits or very close copies has an effect on generating more brand loyalty.

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    Default Re: Copying

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dam View Post

    My evidence is obviously circumstantial.
    Your evidence, clearly, is non-existent, and that's my problem with you, dam. You insist on maligning perfectly respectable manufacturers without a shred of evidence. I know perfectly well that there are fakes around but there is no reason to think that they are coming from Chinese manufacturing companies which put their names to their work.

    But you assert that it is so, so it must be so.
    Not what I wrote. I said it was likely, which is not the same.

    If the LA Times article (granted, it's 10 years old) is to be believed (and why wouldn't it be?) there seems to be less small-fry fly by night operations, and bigger production facilities. Chinese companies operate in a rather opaque way and that is the problem, isn't? Murky manufacturing facilities and practices are well documented and are even part of contemporary Chinese fiction and films (I suggest you watch any film by Jia Zhangke).
    You are asking for a smoking gun when there are only traces here and there, as I've pointed out. Key words: likely, circumstantial. I'm not hell bent on maligning anyone at all. Moving on.

  25. #39
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copying

    Quote Originally Posted by dam View Post
    You are asking for a smoking gun when there are only traces here and there, as I've pointed out. Key words: likely, circumstantial. I'm not hell bent on maligning anyone at all. Moving on.

    It's only natural that I would ask for evidence before believing that anyone is guilty. Likelihoods don't really cut it.
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    Default Re: Copying

    A very good discussion and topic. Deb, you spoiled us yet again.

    Here's a fun one:



    The above is, a "NAVY Pen" made by Ohmi Yoko pen company in Japan.
    Below it, the "inspiration".

    Homage? Borrowing? Duplicate? Inspired-by? Really-Inspired by?

    So don't just pin in on the Chinese manufacturers, their counterparts in Japan are doing the same thing also.
    - Will
    Unique and restored vintage pens: Redeem Pens

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