Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 58

Thread: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

  1. #21
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Highlands of Scotland
    Posts
    1,747
    Thanks
    2,353
    Thanked 1,927 Times in 842 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Also, unexposed to prolonged UV hard rubber is fine in water,
    I already covered that point, further up the thread. Now, how do you tell which hard rubber hasn't had prolonged exposure to UV over the last 90 years. Because that's a really clever trick.
    I don't know

    But I am betting on the high possibility that sections and feeds on pens that looks like it's worth restoring, haven't been exposed to much UV. So far I haven't lost that bet yet.

    Having said that, I've seen a few olive-colored sections before I even soak it.
    I think you might lose a few of those bets. Shiny black one minute, greeny-grey the next.
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog

  2. #22
    Senior Member penwash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Dallas, as in the 80's TV Series
    Posts
    3,662
    Thanks
    3,364
    Thanked 6,703 Times in 1,972 Posts
    Rep Power
    14

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Also, unexposed to prolonged UV hard rubber is fine in water,
    I already covered that point, further up the thread. Now, how do you tell which hard rubber hasn't had prolonged exposure to UV over the last 90 years. Because that's a really clever trick.
    I don't know

    But I am betting on the high possibility that sections and feeds on pens that looks like it's worth restoring, haven't been exposed to much UV. So far I haven't lost that bet yet.

    Having said that, I've seen a few olive-colored sections before I even soak it.
    I think you might lose a few of those bets. Shiny black one minute, greeny-grey the next.
    It's a calculated risk, not a blind bet, there is a difference.

    And I just thought of one case where heat will surely destroy your project. Conklin Nozac. If you heat that barrel, it'll shrink, and no, prying out the threaded section out of a shrink barrel like that won't end in a happy note. Trust me on this, I learn it the hard way. And I'm pretty sure the Nozac is not the only pen that will do this, it's just the most popular and expensive.
    - Will
    Unique and restored vintage pens: Redeem Pens

  3. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to penwash For This Useful Post:

    AzJon (December 10th, 2017), Deb (December 10th, 2017), Seattleite (December 10th, 2017)

  4. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    583
    Thanks
    43
    Thanked 237 Times in 116 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    I'd just like to say that it is nice to see Daniel contributing - you haven't been around much!
    Well, thanks, Jon. I just haven't seen all that much I wanted to add to, frankly.

    --Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

  5. #24
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Highlands of Scotland
    Posts
    1,747
    Thanks
    2,353
    Thanked 1,927 Times in 842 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Also, unexposed to prolonged UV hard rubber is fine in water,
    I already covered that point, further up the thread. Now, how do you tell which hard rubber hasn't had prolonged exposure to UV over the last 90 years. Because that's a really clever trick.
    I don't know

    But I am betting on the high possibility that sections and feeds on pens that looks like it's worth restoring, haven't been exposed to much UV. So far I haven't lost that bet yet.

    Having said that, I've seen a few olive-colored sections before I even soak it.
    I think you might lose a few of those bets. Shiny black one minute, greeny-grey the next.
    It's a calculated risk, not a blind bet, there is a difference.

    And I just thought of one case where heat will surely destroy your project. Conklin Nozac. If you heat that barrel, it'll shrink, and no, prying out the threaded section out of a shrink barrel like that won't end in a happy note. Trust me on this, I learn it the hard way. And I'm pretty sure the Nozac is not the only pen that will do this, it's just the most popular and expensive.
    I think it absolutely is a blind bet. There's no way to tell which nice, shiny BHR pen has been exposed to UV.

    As a restorer of primarily British pens, Nozacs don't come my way. I can only speak about what I have experience of.
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog

  6. #25
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Highlands of Scotland
    Posts
    1,747
    Thanks
    2,353
    Thanked 1,927 Times in 842 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    I use selective soaking when appropriate; it takes almost no time at all to get the front end of a pen soaking. A few seconds, perhaps, if you work on pens with some frequency, and while it's soaking, I can work on other pens, of course, so it's hardly "willfully inefficient." As noted, it's inaccurate that all materials used to make pens will be damaged if in contact with water-based liquids, or that they were not intended to be in prolonged contact with such liquids. Immersing an entire vintage hard rubber pen is generally a bad idea, and unnecessary, due to latent surface damage, but an experienced repairperson can determine whether soaking the forward portion is safe. As for "Radite, so far as I remember, is a form of pyroxylin. I wouldn't immerse that in water. No telling what the long term effects might be," as someone else observed, some celluloid pens hold ink directly in the barrel, and immersion in plain water for a few hours has no long-term effects on celluloid.

    As for, "I see no 'absolutism' in what I'm saying." Well: "Soaking hard rubber components is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Always;" "Water just isn't very good for... celluloid;" "there was no need to put water there in the first place."

    --Daniel
    I'll give you some of that, for the sake of avoiding the dread accusation of absolutism :-) However, what is the situation in which you would dangle the front end of a pen in water rather than using the methods I have described?
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog

  7. #26
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Highlands of Scotland
    Posts
    1,747
    Thanks
    2,353
    Thanked 1,927 Times in 842 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    I use selective soaking when appropriate; it takes almost no time at all to get the front end of a pen soaking. A few seconds, perhaps, if you work on pens with some frequency, and while it's soaking, I can work on other pens, of course, so it's hardly "willfully inefficient." As noted, it's inaccurate that all materials used to make pens will be damaged if in contact with water-based liquids, or that they were not intended to be in prolonged contact with such liquids. Immersing an entire vintage hard rubber pen is generally a bad idea, and unnecessary, due to latent surface damage, but an experienced repairperson can determine whether soaking the forward portion is safe. As for "Radite, so far as I remember, is a form of pyroxylin. I wouldn't immerse that in water. No telling what the long term effects might be," as someone else observed, some celluloid pens hold ink directly in the barrel, and immersion in plain water for a few hours has no long-term effects on celluloid.

    As for, "I see no 'absolutism' in what I'm saying." Well: "Soaking hard rubber components is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Always;" "Water just isn't very good for... celluloid;" "there was no need to put water there in the first place."

    --Daniel
    I'll give you some of that, for the sake of avoiding the dread accusation of absolutism :-) However, what is the situation in which you would dangle the front end of a pen in water rather than using the methods I have described?
    Replying to myself here: On second thoughts, I won't give you any of that, Daniel. Dunking hard rubber parts or pens in water just isn't clever and there's no need to do it. As regards vintage plastics, I've come across several reports of them becoming clouded from immersion. I have no experience of it myself, not being in the habit of soaking pens but it's out there. As regards the accusation of absolutism, I laugh at it. It's a diversion made by people with no better way to press their argument.
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog

  8. #27
    Senior Member AzJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Flagstaff
    Posts
    764
    Thanks
    1,204
    Thanked 826 Times in 352 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Unused to the occasional ink drop or splat, many are neat freaks that immediately disassemble the pen down to every component part just to clean between re-inking!
    I personally lay that blame solely at the feet of one particularly active video making member of the pen community that tends to be the first contact for pen newbies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Also, unexposed to prolonged UV hard rubber is fine in water,
    I already covered that point, further up the thread. Now, how do you tell which hard rubber hasn't had prolonged exposure to UV over the last 90 years. Because that's a really clever trick.
    I don't know

    But I am betting on the high possibility that sections and feeds on pens that looks like it's worth restoring, haven't been exposed to much UV. So far I haven't lost that bet yet.

    Having said that, I've seen a few olive-colored sections before I even soak it.
    I think you might lose a few of those bets. Shiny black one minute, greeny-grey the next.
    Personally, with how well Mark Hoovers magic "deoxidizer" appears to work, any fear over discoloring hard rubber from water exposure, particularly if you are going to bother with a full restoration, seems to be wholly unmerited.

    Why soak? I'll mention it again: because multiple attempt to open a Sheaffer Radite using heat left zero change getting the section out. Further force in attempting to pull the section out would risk breaking, or if the material was softened a bit from the heat, warping the material. Soaking it in cold, filtered water for a few days just above the section let me, with very little force, remove the section. And, as you can see here, obviously ruined the black section and the barrel body.


    Too much heat was a great risk for the pen breaking and soaking allowed for the gentle removal of the section.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to AzJon For This Useful Post:

    Hawk (December 10th, 2017)

  10. #28
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Highlands of Scotland
    Posts
    1,747
    Thanks
    2,353
    Thanked 1,927 Times in 842 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    That's an explanation for one pen. Obviously, I can't argue with your experience in that case. I have no doubt it was the right thing to do when heat had failed to do the job for you. Do you regard soaking as the better method for disassembly in general?

    As regards Hoover's reblackening mixture, let's wait and see what the consequences of using it are a while down the road. I never reblacken but that's a different issue for another day.
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog

  11. #29
    Senior Member penwash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Dallas, as in the 80's TV Series
    Posts
    3,662
    Thanks
    3,364
    Thanked 6,703 Times in 1,972 Posts
    Rep Power
    14

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    That's an explanation for one pen. Obviously, I can't argue with your experience in that case. I have no doubt it was the right thing to do when heat had failed to do the job for you. Do you regard soaking as the better method for disassembly in general?
    All I can say is that soaking fits my workflow. It does a lot more good than harm (in my experience), and since I work in phases (work on several pens at a time), it doesn't really slow me down at all.

    But you've given me some food for thought on the effectiveness of heating. So now I have two approaches that I can consider.

    So thank you again for a thread that generates useful discussions.
    - Will
    Unique and restored vintage pens: Redeem Pens

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to penwash For This Useful Post:

    AzJon (December 10th, 2017)

  13. #30
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Highlands of Scotland
    Posts
    1,747
    Thanks
    2,353
    Thanked 1,927 Times in 842 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    My pleasure. I like to hear everyone's opinions.
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog

  14. #31
    Senior Member AzJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Flagstaff
    Posts
    764
    Thanks
    1,204
    Thanked 826 Times in 352 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    I have one of Hoover's restored woodgrain pens. I think his pens are very nicely restored and he has spent a long time developing the deoxidzer (not strictly for black rubber). Vulcanized rubber is pretty hardy stuff overall, but I can understand the apprehension.

    I will also concede that my repairs aren't being done on shining examples of a pen. Usually just saving an unloved, but otherwise excellent, pen. The pens I fix I usually end up using myself or maybe reselling for a bit more than I acquired them. Perhaps I would think twice before soaking a pristine radite! Water works well for me and I've not seen any particularly convincing reason not to use it if used in a, as Penwash put it, calculated risk kind of way.

  15. #32
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Highlands of Scotland
    Posts
    1,747
    Thanks
    2,353
    Thanked 1,927 Times in 842 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    I'll discuss Hoover another time. One subject is enough per thread.

    If what you're doing works for you, that's fine.
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog

  16. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    583
    Thanks
    43
    Thanked 237 Times in 116 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    I use selective soaking when appropriate; it takes almost no time at all to get the front end of a pen soaking. A few seconds, perhaps, if you work on pens with some frequency, and while it's soaking, I can work on other pens, of course, so it's hardly "willfully inefficient." As noted, it's inaccurate that all materials used to make pens will be damaged if in contact with water-based liquids, or that they were not intended to be in prolonged contact with such liquids. Immersing an entire vintage hard rubber pen is generally a bad idea, and unnecessary, due to latent surface damage, but an experienced repairperson can determine whether soaking the forward portion is safe. As for "Radite, so far as I remember, is a form of pyroxylin. I wouldn't immerse that in water. No telling what the long term effects might be," as someone else observed, some celluloid pens hold ink directly in the barrel, and immersion in plain water for a few hours has no long-term effects on celluloid.

    As for, "I see no 'absolutism' in what I'm saying." Well: "Soaking hard rubber components is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Always;" "Water just isn't very good for... celluloid;" "there was no need to put water there in the first place."

    --Daniel
    I'll give you some of that, for the sake of avoiding the dread accusation of absolutism :-) However, what is the situation in which you would dangle the front end of a pen in water rather than using the methods I have described?
    The less force applied to a pen, the safer the repair process is. Loosening material that is contributing to a section's stubbornness can reduce the force needed to extract it.

    --Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

  17. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    583
    Thanks
    43
    Thanked 237 Times in 116 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    I use selective soaking when appropriate; it takes almost no time at all to get the front end of a pen soaking. A few seconds, perhaps, if you work on pens with some frequency, and while it's soaking, I can work on other pens, of course, so it's hardly "willfully inefficient." As noted, it's inaccurate that all materials used to make pens will be damaged if in contact with water-based liquids, or that they were not intended to be in prolonged contact with such liquids. Immersing an entire vintage hard rubber pen is generally a bad idea, and unnecessary, due to latent surface damage, but an experienced repairperson can determine whether soaking the forward portion is safe. As for "Radite, so far as I remember, is a form of pyroxylin. I wouldn't immerse that in water. No telling what the long term effects might be," as someone else observed, some celluloid pens hold ink directly in the barrel, and immersion in plain water for a few hours has no long-term effects on celluloid.

    As for, "I see no 'absolutism' in what I'm saying." Well: "Soaking hard rubber components is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Always;" "Water just isn't very good for... celluloid;" "there was no need to put water there in the first place."

    --Daniel
    I'll give you some of that, for the sake of avoiding the dread accusation of absolutism :-) However, what is the situation in which you would dangle the front end of a pen in water rather than using the methods I have described?
    Replying to myself here: On second thoughts, I won't give you any of that, Daniel. Dunking hard rubber parts or pens in water just isn't clever and there's no need to do it. As regards vintage plastics, I've come across several reports of them becoming clouded from immersion. I have no experience of it myself, not being in the habit of soaking pens but it's out there. As regards the accusation of absolutism, I laugh at it. It's a diversion made by people with no better way to press their argument.
    "As regards the accusation of absolutism, I laugh at it."

    "Dunking hard rubber parts or pens in water just isn't clever and there's no need to do it."

    So much for the claims of open-mindedness expressed earlier.

    I don't use the described technique to be "clever;"' that's an odd standard. I use it to effectively and safely perform a repair. Obviously, our experience differs; I have had success with my approach, so I continue to employ it. It's curious that you're attempting to tell me that my experience doesn't exist or has no value.


    "As regards vintage plastics, I've come across several reports of them becoming clouded from immersion. I have no experience of it myself."

    I've come across reports of all sorts of things, many of them wrong. I appreciate your statement that you have no experience of your own with this specific topic; I do, and I rely on that experience.

    "As regards the accusation of absolutism, I laugh at it. It's a diversion made by people with no better way to press their argument."

    Previously, you'd said you hadn't made absolutist statements. When that's proven to be false, you say it doesn't matter. That's not a particularly sincere approach to discussion.

    --Daniel
    Last edited by kirchh; December 10th, 2017 at 07:28 PM.
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

  18. #35
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Highlands of Scotland
    Posts
    1,747
    Thanks
    2,353
    Thanked 1,927 Times in 842 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    My goodness, Daniel, when you get stroppy you begin to sound like Isaacson, and that really creeps me out.
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog

  19. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    583
    Thanks
    43
    Thanked 237 Times in 116 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    My goodness, Daniel, when you get stroppy you begin to sound like Isaacson, and that really creeps me out.
    An ad hominem argument doesn't further the discussion.

    --Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to kirchh For This Useful Post:

    Hawk (December 10th, 2017)

  21. #37
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Highlands of Scotland
    Posts
    1,747
    Thanks
    2,353
    Thanked 1,927 Times in 842 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    My goodness, Daniel, when you get stroppy you begin to sound like Isaacson, and that really creeps me out.
    An ad hominem argument doesn't further the discussion.

    --Daniel
    Probably not, but nor does that repetitive, nitpicky nonsense you set out above. I've no time for that kind of thing.
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog

  22. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    583
    Thanks
    43
    Thanked 237 Times in 116 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    My goodness, Daniel, when you get stroppy you begin to sound like Isaacson, and that really creeps me out.
    An ad hominem argument doesn't further the discussion.

    --Daniel
    Probably not, but nor does that repetitive, nitpicky nonsense you set out above. I've no time for that kind of thing.
    Disparagement of factual accuracy is distinctly unproductive, though I appreciate the admission that you're dropping the pretense of having a sincere discussion about the topic you raised.

    --Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

  23. #39
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Highlands of Scotland
    Posts
    1,747
    Thanks
    2,353
    Thanked 1,927 Times in 842 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    In this thread, as in other recent posts, my aim has been to raise the signal over the nolise on this board. Discussion with everyone else in this thread went fine but you, with your usual trollishness are just here for a fight. I won't waste my time or energy on you.
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog

  24. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    SFO USA
    Posts
    1,375
    Thanks
    13
    Thanked 1,113 Times in 573 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    In this thread, as in other recent posts, my aim has been to raise the signal over the nolise on this board. Discussion with everyone else in this thread went fine but you, with your usual trollishness are just here for a fight. I won't waste my time or energy on you.
    I disagree.

    I also have gotten the front end of a pen wet. Sometimes it takes heat AND a soak.

  25. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Farmboy For This Useful Post:

    kirchh (December 11th, 2017), penwash (December 11th, 2017)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •