To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

[Deb]

Not for me. However, if that's what works for you, that's fine.

[Seattleite]

In my original post I asked to be convinced that there was some merit in soaking pens. Nothing has been said that sounds convincing to me. Now I'm being told by penwash he only soaks up to the section. I don't see any problem with that - he's only soaking the nib and the feed. Mind you, by time he has set up an arrangement to precisely dangle a pen in water, I'd have restored a few using heat. By time his jig has wicked old ink out of a section and feed I would have moved on to the following week or maybe fortnight. That just seems wilfully inefficient to me.

Seattleite tells me that a little easily removed discoloration of hard rubber isn't a problem. Agreed. You can abrade it off, paint it or apply some gunk that may have unfortunate effects some way down the line. And, in the meantime, I'm working on another pen or two. With heat.

How about if you take some of that time you waste and learn to use heat properly on scrap parts? It might take half a day at the most. And I see no "absolutism" in what I'm saying. It's just what I've learned from years of restoring pens.

I felt that challenging some of your erroneous statements was the right thing to do. How you have chosen to respond is.... interesting.

Bob

[kirchh]

In this thread, as in other recent posts, my aim has been to raise the signal over the nolise on this board. Discussion with everyone else in this thread went fine but you, with your usual trollishness are just here for a fight. I won't waste my time or energy on you.

At least you've admitted to the disingenuousness of your earlier declarations, such as "I like to hear everyone's opinions."

--Daniel

[Deb]

In my original post I asked to be convinced that there was some merit in soaking pens. Nothing has been said that sounds convincing to me. Now I'm being told by penwash he only soaks up to the section. I don't see any problem with that - he's only soaking the nib and the feed. Mind you, by time he has set up an arrangement to precisely dangle a pen in water, I'd have restored a few using heat. By time his jig has wicked old ink out of a section and feed I would have moved on to the following week or maybe fortnight. That just seems wilfully inefficient to me.

Seattleite tells me that a little easily removed discoloration of hard rubber isn't a problem. Agreed. You can abrade it off, paint it or apply some gunk that may have unfortunate effects some way down the line. And, in the meantime, I'm working on another pen or two. With heat.

How about if you take some of that time you waste and learn to use heat properly on scrap parts? It might take half a day at the most. And I see no "absolutism" in what I'm saying. It's just what I've learned from years of restoring pens.

I felt that challenging some of your erroneous statements was the right thing to do. How you have chosen to respond is.... interesting.

Bob

Why? What's your problem?

[Scooby921]

Hi Scooby921,

What's this "professional" shenanigans? I don't have a degree in pen repair. I didn't take any classes. So far as I'm aware it's well short of being a profession. I decided to try to repair a pen one day. It worked. So I did another and another and the years went by. I made mistakes along the way so now I offer what I've learned so that others don't need to make the same mistakes.

You buy pens, repair them, and sell them. That sounds like a business to me. Thus pen repair is a profession for you. Perhaps not your primary source of income, but more a profession for you than for someone like me who has only attempted to restore a single pen. Having a wealth more experience, a collection of tools and materials from years of repair work, and your own "lessons learned" knowledge base of what to do and not do does make you a professional, whether you want to be one or not .

Most people have hair dryers. I used one for quite a while, and not for drying my hair. They are perfectly adequate for many of the pen repair tasks. Warm water is an extremely inefficient way of loosening shellac and most glues. Why do that, when most people have a good heat source at hand?

I heated a pot of water to 2°C warmer than the melting point of shellac. I stuck the nib, feed, section, and first 1/2" of the barrel into the water for 1 minute. It came apart easily and there were no worries about too much localized heat. Once apart I dropped the nib, feed, and section assembly into a small glass of water and let it sit there for an hour to reconstitute the ink that had been dried up in the feed for a decade. I obviously wasn't clear about sticking pens in water and meaning only certain parts of it. I guess I was relying on people having some common sense when it comes to these things. I can't imagine anyone dropping an entire pen into a cup or pot of water and leaving it there.

I've seen the consequences of soaking pens. Fixed clips, pressure bars, circlips, all manner of metal parts rusted unnecessarily through bad practice. Water is very good at lying in concealed places so you think you've got it all out, but you haven't. And there was no need to put it there in the first place.

"Yes water will lead to corrosion, but the rate at which it happens is slow, and even slower while things remain submerged"

I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. I agree that corrosion is slow but I'm suggesting using methods that will prevent it from starting.

The time necessary to soak anything and clean it is far shorter than the time required for oxidization to begin. If you properly clean and dry the parts there is no water remaining. This is why I mentioned cans of compressed air. They do a great job of getting water out of places it shouldn't be. I also mentioned rust preventative cleaners and coatings. Take the spring bar out of a water bath, blow it dry with compressed air, and dress it with some variety of rust preventative. Gun cleaning solution works well on steel parts. Again with common sense, don't just dunk it and leave it.

It won't seem so convenient when you ruin a good pen.

Also, water and rubber are fine.

Not vintage HR pens. When people bandy about info like the above, there is ample opportunity for someone new to the hobby to see it and assume they can just plunk that sucker in some water for a good soak. See Point #1.

See comments above. I was assuming we were dealing with some amount of common sense and not just dropping an entire pen into a water bath to see what happens.

Also, unexposed to prolonged UV hard rubber is fine in water,

I already covered that point, further up the thread. Now, how do you tell which hard rubber hasn't had prolonged exposure to UV over the last 90 years. Because that's a really clever trick.

I don't know

But I am betting on the high possibility that sections and feeds on pens that looks like it's worth restoring, haven't been exposed to much UV. So far I haven't lost that bet yet.

Having said that, I've seen a few olive-colored sections before I even soak it.

I think you might lose a few of those bets. Shiny black one minute, greeny-grey the next.

What have people tried in regards to restoring color? Plenty of automotive products out there for restoring the dark black color to plastic and rubber trim. Wipe it on, let it bond with the material, wipe off the excess. Not perfect, but it tends to add a protective layer to the material as well. Finished product / surface is dry to the touch, so it wouldn't be oily when you pick up the pen to write with it.

[Deb]

"Profession: a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification." It's just a job, nothing so glorified as a profession.

As regards soaking, I stated my case on the basis of my experience in the first post. I haven't seen anything that suggests I was wrong so I haven't changed my position. I don't have anything more to say about it.

Many of those automotive products may contain chemicals that will be harmful to materials they were never intended for. "Do no harm" is all the law.

[KrazyIvan]

When I started in this hobby some 10 years ago, the first thing I learned was not to soak pens. Later I learned not to soak vintage pens. Modern pens, as long as they were not ebonite, celluloid or casein, are okay. Then through I experience I learned that was not true. I've soaked modern acrylic pens with plastic feeds and have had sections seperate from the internal tubes. (2 of them now). They were easily fixed with a few drops of shellac but I dont soak anymore. Flushing with a bulb syringe and an untrasonic clean of the nib unit only, and in the most extreme cases, is all I do now.

[Deb]

When I started in this hobby some 10 years ago, the first thing I learned was not to soak pens. Later I learned not to soak vintage pens. Modern pens, as long as they were not ebonite, celluloid or casein, are okay. Then through I experience I learned that was not true. I've soaked modern acrylic pens with plastic feeds and have had sections seperate from the internal tubes. (2 of them now). They were easily fixed with a few drops of shellac but I dont soak anymore. Flushing with a bulb syringe and an untrasonic clean of the nib unit only, and in the most extreme cases, is all I do now.

Yes. The bulb is a very handy tool. I have an ultrasonic cleaner but I don't use it much. It's good for the nib units from Osmiroids, Esterbrooks and some German school pens. I have one or two modern pens but I haven't had to repair any.

[kirchh]

As regards soaking, I stated my case on the basis of my experience in the first post. I haven't seen anything that suggests I was wrong so I haven't changed my position.

Multiple experienced repairpersons reported the value of certain soaking operations and provided information and experiential data that you did not have (e.g. effects of water on celluloid). You rejected all that information, which calls into question your previous claims of open-mindedness.

--Daniel

[Scooby921]

Many of those automotive products may contain chemicals that will be harmful to materials they were never intended for. "Do no harm" is all the law.

Are we agreeing or disagreeing that a product designed for rubber and plastics might work on rubber?

[Deb]

Many of those automotive products may contain chemicals that will be harmful to materials they were never intended for. "Do no harm" is all the law.

Are we agreeing or disagreeing that a product designed for rubber and plastics might work on rubber?

If you're actually asking for advice, I might deal with this but if you're just looking to extend a very tired argument, I would suggest you look into it yourself.

[Jon Szanto]

Many of those automotive products may contain chemicals that will be harmful to materials they were never intended for. "Do no harm" is all the law.

Are we agreeing or disagreeing that a product designed for rubber and plastics might work on rubber?

One might start with the question "Are all rubber and plastics the same?" Additionally, what is the underlying purpose of the product? Is a rubber treatment meant for autiomobile tires, which have a limited and non-visual-centric lifespan and would be treated when in new condition, appropriate for an old rubber object? Nothing is clear cut.

[Deb]

Quite so, Jon. Indeed, the "rubber" used in car tyres and hoses is a very different product from the material made for pens, long ago or now. Likewise, there are a host of different materials called plastics, all with different properties. Then there are "automotive products"; even if we stick with the abrasives and polishes for plastics, there are a great many of them all with different constituent ingredients. Some list the plastics they can be used on, others don't.

If we're in the business of restoring pens rather than shortening the time they'll be around, most automotive products are best used on automobiles.

[KrazyIvan]

I'm going to have to investigate how 303 UV Protectant works on ebonite pen barrels. It's a very good protectant that keeps rubber and plastics from being damaged by UV rays.

[TSherbs]

You can water soak any part of a pen that is normally in contact with ink (which is nearly entirely water). But soak judiciously. I never "soak" for longer than an hour or so at a time. As with any cleaning process with anything, be observant and adjust to the results. All methods have their pros and cons.

[Chrissy]

You can water soak any part of a pen that is normally in contact with ink (which is nearly entirely water). But soak judiciously. I never "soak" for longer than an hour or so at a time. As with any cleaning process with anything, be observant and adjust to the results. All methods have their pros and cons.

This is what I tend to do. I would never soak a whole pen in water or in my USC, but I like to water soak just the end of the sections in water or in pen flush for a short period of time.

I have a hair dryer and I bought myself a heat gun, but I'm inexperienced with dismantling pens, so I find I'm very scared when I'm using heat near to pens. I've restored several Esterbrooks and a couple of Parker 51's using heat, but if I can get away with propping a section up in my USC I tend to try that first. In order to not expose the pen parts to the liquid in the USC for a long period of time, I run it empty until the liquid has warmed up before giving a section a couple of minutes in there. I find it less scary than the direct heat of my heat gun that's for sure. However, I don't think I have any pen sections made from material that shouldn't get wet for a short time, so I feel safe when using my USC.

I recently found I had a slight problem with an Omas where the nib and feed weren't in what I would call "correct alignment" with the feeder case slots, and when I flushed water through it, the water came out at a right angle. I knew I had to do something with it, and soaking the end of the grip section enabled me to unscrew it from the barrel. From there it was simple enough to knock out the nib and feed. Even so, I found the procedure stressful. It got much worse when I needed to put the nib and feed back into the section. They just would not go in. Even with the section warmed in the USC, they still wouldn't go in.

I had to use my heat gun, and found that the only way I trusted it was to put part of my finger between the section and the heat. I did eventually get that nib and feed in using dry heat from the heat gun, but it was a nervous time and I had to keep tapping the other end of the section while trying to push the nib and feed in. I fixed the problem, but advocate that it is right to not remove a nib and feed from any pen unless it is essential. I think in my case it was essential.

[gbryal]

Besides the reasons mentioned, if you soak a whole vintage pen you found in the basement or on ebay, the ink that comes out may well stain the barrel.

If you are slow like me, it can even happen twice.

[Deb]

You can water soak any part of a pen that is normally in contact with ink (which is nearly entirely water). But soak judiciously. I never "soak" for longer than an hour or so at a time. As with any cleaning process with anything, be observant and adjust to the results. All methods have their pros and cons.

This is what I tend to do. I would never soak a whole pen in water or in my USC, but I like to water soak just the end of the sections in water or in pen flush for a short period of time.

I have a hair dryer and I bought myself a heat gun, but I'm inexperienced with dismantling pens, so I find I'm very scared when I'm using heat near to pens. I've restored several Esterbrooks and a couple of Parker 51's using heat, but if I can get away with propping a section up in my USC I tend to try that first. In order to not expose the pen parts to the liquid in the USC for a long period of time, I run it empty until the liquid has warmed up before giving a section a couple of minutes in there. I find it less scary than the direct heat of my heat gun that's for sure. However, I don't think I have any pen sections made from material that shouldn't get wet for a short time, so I feel safe when using my USC.

I recently found I had a slight problem with an Omas where the nib and feed weren't in what I would call "correct alignment" with the feeder case slots, and when I flushed water through it, the water came out at a right angle. I knew I had to do something with it, and soaking the end of the grip section enabled me to unscrew it from the barrel. From there it was simple enough to knock out the nib and feed. Even so, I found the procedure stressful. It got much worse when I needed to put the nib and feed back into the section. They just would not go in. Even with the section warmed in the USC, they still wouldn't go in.

I had to use my heat gun, and found that the only way I trusted it was to put part of my finger between the section and the heat. I did eventually get that nib and feed in using dry heat from the heat gun, but it was a nervous time and I had to keep tapping the other end of the section while trying to push the nib and feed in. I fixed the problem, but advocate that it is right to not remove a nib and feed from any pen unless it is essential. I think in my case it was essential.

As I think you have discovered, the heat generated by the USC isn't enough to be useful. The USC may remove crusted old ink but that's about the limit of its usefulness. For opening up sections or melting glue, dry heat is the way to go. I understand and appreciate your nervousness in applying dry heat, especially from a heat gun which can run at a higher temperature. Your technique of using your finger to assess heat is a good one. I think being apprehensive about using powerful methods - like heat - is wisdom. It's the person full of inappropriate confidence who gets to see how fast a celluloid pen can burn.