Prejudice Against Noodler's Ink

[Dreck]

Back to the original question. I think sometimes it's good for an ink maker to comment on the boards from time to time. Succinctly comment if you will. Also I believe that political statements don't belong on ink labels

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It is good for a maker to be in touch with his client base, true. While I agree with your former statement, I wholeheartedly disagree with the latter. I *love* the political commentary. They're spot-on, wickedly funny, some good history lessons, & make me want to try some colors just because the name intrigues me.

Another question of the brand may be the Noodler pens that are somewhat temperamental. If one has a bad experience with a pen, it's quite likely they may transfer some of that opinion to a brand's inks. It's a natural thing that consumers do.

I have three Noodler's pens, & my daughter has a fourth. Not a single one has given us a minute of hassle or headache. Same with the half-dozen bottles of their ink that I use.

[Jon Szanto]

I *love* the political commentary. They're spot-on, wickedly funny, some good history lessons, & make me want to try some colors just because the name intrigues me.

Well, someone who adopts Mr. Tardis's approach will be following "live by the sword, die by the sword": I, for one, am diametrically opposed to his viewpoints and, unlike you, they make me avoid the inks rather than be interested in them. If that is a fair trade-off for him as a retailer, then I guess he is making inks for some reason other than selling them. That doesn't make sense to me, but it's his venture, not mine.

[mhosea]

While I certainly concur that it s a "live by the sword, die by the sword" situation, how do you identify that you are diametrically opposed? I trust that your views are well-defined to you, but I must admit to some confusion over exactly what his views are after having read a few of his politically-oriented labels and listened to a few of his videos. His views on QE by the Fed are well-defined, but I wonder if people aren't projecting a lot of assumptions about his ideas onto the man just because he has harsh words for Democrats and thinks freedom and democracy are great things. Obviously he liked Scott Brown a lot, but it takes a certain amount of ignorance of Massachusetts politics to read a whole lot into that. What was it that Jon Stewart said? A Massachusetts Republican is like a gay Texas Democrat? He kind of sounds like a libertarian (by which I do not mean a member of the Libertarian Party) to me, but I don't have enough data to nail him down on the social spectrum, really, and this is my problem. I'm wondering how you were able to overcome it in order to compare your views with his on the social spectrum. If he actually is a libertarian, he'd be socially liberal, in which case Putin would perhaps be diametrically opposed.

[Dreck]

Well, someone who adopts Mr. Tardis's approach will be following "live by the sword, die by the sword": I, for one, am diametrically opposed to his viewpoints and, unlike you, they make me avoid the inks rather than be interested in them. If that is a fair trade-off for him as a retailer, then I guess he is making inks for some reason other than selling them. That doesn't make sense to me, but it's his venture, not mine.

And that's the beautiful thing about a American freedom. In a free-market economy where consumers are allowed to make their own choices & businesses are allowed to thrive or fail on their own inherent merits, a company like Noodler's can hire, market, & sell as they please.

[broadoblique]

I would definitely think Nathan is libertarian in his philosophy. In which case I'm sure he is very comfortable with others expressing strong negative views regarding his inks. As long as those views are thought out and the result of reason and fact. I'm sure he would have great respect for someone going through all the effort to actually test his inks - whether it reveals that they turn pricey pens into mush, or are well behaved, creative bargains. It's apparent to me that Nathan trusts the retail market to determine his successes and failures.

I'm very comfortable with Noodler's labels expressing strong political views. I haven't seen anything hateful, slanderous or harmful. I also find them entertaining, and I'll make the choice about reading them.

[jackwebb]

I have found most of his expressed views to be more patriotic then anything. If were offended by his views enough, I have the right not to buy his products, just as he has the right to express whatever view he wishes... Ain't America grand.

[Jon Szanto]

Mike, I probably took the shortest route possible when I said "diametrically opposed". I might have gone into a longer exposition as to how most everything I had ever seen him espouse tended to grate on me, but it really isn't important enough to elaborate. As others have so well stated, it is his right, and it is a free market, and he will do what he thinks best for him.

My only point was that it was enough of a turn-off to take me away from his inks. When I started with FPs a few years ago, this wasn't the case, but at some point, I just wasn't interested in his approach.

I've decided to not buy any of these paintings, as well...

[mhosea]

LOL

It did occur to me after I wrote that that you might have meant that you were opposed only to the quite specific views of his you had been confronted with, rather than the man's entire political identity, but I knew you would come back with a thoughtful reply.

[Jon Szanto]

...but I knew you would come back with a thoughtful reply.

Just who in the bleeding fuck do you have me confused with???

[mhosea]

Just who in the bleeding fuck do you have me confused with???

Lisa.

[Jon Szanto]

Lisa.

[rgperedo]

I definitely didn't read through all 12 pages, I did read a nice chunk of the conversation and my points weren't mentioned sufficiently so perhaps this'll help someone or entertain someone. I am by no means an expert on ink, but one of the main elements that attracted me to Noodler's inks (which I only have two colors Noodler's black and 54th Mass. I only like Black or dark Blue-Black ink, I don't use any other colors) is the fact that they are archival and water resistant. I don't necessarily think that what I am writing is so crucial, but keeping a journal I would like this to last for as long as possible. Secondly as far as the waterproof ink goes, I draw a lot. I have other pens that I use for drawing and sketching, but I now only carry one pen for writing and drawing (consolidating pen space) so I need the ink to be able to perhaps take a light wash of watercolor over it. I have found other ink that I like (Sailor nano ink- Black of course) the Sailor ink is fine, but it does take a little longer to be "waterproof" so those are my two cents. I'm not emotionally invested in any of the inks I use, I just try to be pragmatic about what I want as a consumer and who will fill that need better. Right now it's Noodler's, if anyone else was producing archival and waterproof ink for fountain pens I would be interested in that as well. Cheers.

[Plume145]

After spending the afternoon trying some noodler's samples with my beloved glass nib dip pen (hand-blown murano glass, in a custom color way) and having the nib end up with unidentifiable sediment stuck in the grooves after only a couple of shades, thus turning the nib from perfectly clear to a shady, sickly greyish, I have now sworn off the stuff for good. I know people advocate for 'good pen hygiene' as the cure-all, but really, you couldn't imagine better pen hygiene than I used in this case: a GLASS pen (NOT plastic like most FP feeds), dunking in water with the ink still wet ON THE PAPER let alone the nib, and swirling vigorously to lose the ink, then dunking and swirling again in a cup of clean water. And still - a tint, from just one or two inks. A pen cleaner bath helped some, but it certainly isn't back to what it was.

I used to be neutral about noodler's - I couldn't understand the enthusiasm but I couldn't see why the hate from some, or why RIchard Binder would almost warn people away lol. Now I can. Moreover, it sounds like he can't/won't conduct adequate safety testing or even provide QC and consistency. That seems in line with my experience too. That's unacceptable for a company that purports to offer a complete, finished product, rather than the results of an experiment or a work-in-progress (with selective distribution to match). ESPECIALLY since he's all about pushing the boundaries of what FP ink is able to do, formula-wise (which I agree is interesting and totally worth exploring, BUT act like it's an experiment until you've got all your ducks in a row).

[Marsilius]

I have tried to do washes and THEN add ink lines on top, but I like to draw ink lines first, so get your drift. I do love the Sailor Nano black and even pen the way it gives when almost dry.

[mhosea]

After spending the afternoon trying some noodler's samples with my beloved glass nib dip pen (hand-blown murano glass, in a custom color way) and having the nib end up with unidentifiable sediment stuck in the grooves after only a couple of shades, thus turning the nib from perfectly clear to a shady, sickly greyish, I have now sworn off the stuff for good. I know people advocate for 'good pen hygiene' as the cure-all, but really, you couldn't imagine better pen hygiene than I used in this case: a GLASS pen (NOT plastic like most FP feeds), dunking in water with the ink still wet ON THE PAPER let alone the nib, and swirling vigorously to lose the ink, then dunking and swirling again in a cup of clean water. And still - a tint, from just one or two inks. A pen cleaner bath helped some, but it certainly isn't back to what it was.

We can probably draw a box around the problem that doesn't encompass the entire brand. Some of the cellulose-reactive (bulletproof) colors do leave a residue on glass and metal surfaces (at least). Ironically, I'm not sure I've ever seen this layer form on plastic, though I would not go so far as to surmise that it doesn't. Anyway, if you transfer Noodler's Heart of Darkness from one bottle to another, you will see this residue of it left behind on the bottle. I have tried solvent-based approaches to removing it from the inside of the bottle, but in the end I do not know of any household solvent that works at all, let alone a "safe" and effective one. And yet, if one reaches in with a finger or cloth, it wipes easily off the surface. After having such trouble removing it by circulating and soaking liquids, it seems rather dramatic how easily it is removed mechanically by wiping. My inexpensive ultrasonic removes it, also, though effectively cleaning it out of the recessed parts of the nib and feed is not immediate.

It is not my purpose to defend it, rather to describe and explain it, to make it a known phenomenon rather than something unexpected and potentially misunderstood.

Should it be feared? Is this residue dangerous to pens? I don't know. I have no evidence of that. I have conducted a pen dry-out experiment with Noodler's Heart of Darkness, and there were no difficulties flushing out the pen. It merely took longer. Flushing vintage inks out of vintage pens also takes awhile. I can't rule out that the residue might react with some other ink, but the residue seems inert, and it never seems to build up. I have yet only seen what appears to be one layer, and one layer only.

But if it's not actually dangerous, is it still a problem? For me, yes, it is somewhat, though I use my ultrasonic cleaner with some regularity, and my pen hygiene is sufficient to remove it. Still, I tend to relegate these inks to c/c pens.

[Plume145]

After spending the afternoon trying some noodler's samples with my beloved glass nib dip pen (hand-blown murano glass, in a custom color way) and having the nib end up with unidentifiable sediment stuck in the grooves after only a couple of shades, thus turning the nib from perfectly clear to a shady, sickly greyish, I have now sworn off the stuff for good. I know people advocate for 'good pen hygiene' as the cure-all, but really, you couldn't imagine better pen hygiene than I used in this case: a GLASS pen (NOT plastic like most FP feeds), dunking in water with the ink still wet ON THE PAPER let alone the nib, and swirling vigorously to lose the ink, then dunking and swirling again in a cup of clean water. And still - a tint, from just one or two inks. A pen cleaner bath helped some, but it certainly isn't back to what it was.

We can probably draw a box around the problem that doesn't encompass the entire brand. Some of the cellulose-reactive (bulletproof) colors do leave a residue on glass and metal surfaces (at least). Ironically, I'm not sure I've ever seen this layer form on plastic, though I would not go so far as to surmise that it doesn't. Anyway, if you transfer Noodler's Heart of Darkness from one bottle to another, you will see this residue of it left behind on the bottle. I have tried solvent-based approaches to removing it from the inside of the bottle, but in the end I do not know of any household solvent that works at all, let alone a "safe" and effective one. And yet, if one reaches in with a finger or cloth, it wipes easily off the surface. After having such trouble removing it by circulating and soaking liquids, it seems rather dramatic how easily it is removed mechanically by wiping. My inexpensive ultrasonic removes it, also, though effectively cleaning it out of the recessed parts of the nib and feed is not immediate.

It is not my purpose to defend it, rather to describe and explain it, to make it a known phenomenon rather than something unexpected and potentially misunderstood.

Should it be feared? Is this residue dangerous to pens? I don't know. I have no evidence of that. I have conducted a pen dry-out experiment with Noodler's Heart of Darkness, and there were no difficulties flushing out the pen. It merely took longer. Flushing vintage inks out of vintage pens also takes awhile. I can't rule out that the residue might react with some other ink, but the residue seems inert, and it never seems to build up. I have yet only seen what appears to be one layer, and one layer only.

But if it's not actually dangerous, is it still a problem? For me, yes, it is somewhat, though I use my ultrasonic cleaner with some regularity, and my pen hygiene is sufficient to remove it. Still, I tend to relegate these inks to c/c pens.

No, it's good to know this stuff, I definitely appreciate some describing and explaining! Especially your experience cleaning this out, I will be sure to try some mechanical action. I have a cheap little ultrasonic cleaner, but it's too small to fit this pen, so I'll try the toothbrush.

I'm not sure which lines these were from - it was all samples, so I just had the brand and shade name. The first one I did colored the nib a faint pink; it was baystate cranberry (even though I was extra-careful as a result of all I've heard about Baystate Blue), and then I did the rest: Burgundy, Rome Burning, Tianamen, Borealis Black, Cayenne, Liberty's Elysium, Cactus Fruit American Eel, El Lawrence, Green, Black Eel, and Habanero. It's somewhere in those that the sediment went from faint pink (from BSCranberry) to the current slimy grayish.

I guess labelling is an issue too; I hope the bottles are clearly labelled as very strong inks requiring extraordinary precautions. It couldn't hurt if anyone who made packaged samples (Goulets, isellpens, Anderson's, etc) also put that warning on the samples, although it's more understandable if they don't because of the lack of space. Still, I guess they could do it with a symbol, like a ⚠

I see what you mean about there being no evidence of harm. Well, part of me is thinking, 'absence of proof is not proof of absence', lol, but even so, the bigger part of me wonders simply, why bother?

I always thought the necessity for everything-proof ink was overstated, whether your bogeyman was forgers or father time :P - many of the people who just have to have it zomg!, don't really need it. Even if you do, you can use these with a cheap dip pen (glass ones can be had for as little as $10). For on the go, buy a $3 preppy! At that price, it's practically a throwaway pen for most any pen budget - a pen you could just bin if cleaning it would mean wasting gallons of water and tons of time. Which it probably won't anyway, since it can be disassembled completely, the nib separated from the feed and grip section.

In other words, it seems easier and more sensible to treat these as gimmick inks and use them accordingly, and take regular ink business to one of the many other ink companies out there who don't have this kind of issue. Does that make sense?

[Sailor Kenshin]

I still like some of the Noodler's colors (can you say old-style BSIAR?), still have, what, five full-sized bottles, and maybe 20 samples, but from now I'm only using them in inexpensive CC pens.

Except for Bad Green Gator. That's my check-writing ink in an (equally) inexpensive Hero 329.

[TMac]

I have no deep knowledge of ink and it's harmful properties to our beloved pens. While I see a lot of strong passions from both sides on Noodlers, are there concerns about Diamine? I used to use a lot of Noodlers ink but was fearful to put it in my "nicer" pens based on others comments. I love the array of great colors Noodlers produces, so I found Diamine to be close in the number of colors. Are there fears with Diamine similar to Noodlers as to potential damage?

[Waski_the_Squirrel]

The problem may have come from the inclusion of a Baystate ink in your sampling. These will react and create interesting new compounds that have the consistency of sludge. I've done it on purpose...and then had a lot of trouble cleaning the residue from said sludge out of the beaker!

I don't know if the Baystate is your problem, but it easily could be.


As for the post about Diamine: I'll admit the brand does nothing for me, but I really loved the Ancient Copper. I got a sample and discovered a shocking amount of crusty growth all over the nib and feed. I read about the ink and found that it does this in some pens, though not all. Other than this one, I'm not sure. In fairness, the crusty growth seemed to wash off, but it did ruin the experience for me. Luckily, I found a color in another brand that is quite similar.

[TMac]

The problem may have come from the inclusion of a Baystate ink in your sampling. These will react and create interesting new compounds that have the consistency of sludge. I've done it on purpose...and then had a lot of trouble cleaning the residue from said sludge out of the beaker!

I don't know if the Baystate is your problem, but it easily could be.




As for the post about Diamine: I'll admit the brand does nothing for me, but I really loved the Ancient Copper. I got a sample and discovered a shocking amount of crusty growth all over the nib and feed. I read about the ink and found that it does this in some pens, though not all. Other than this one, I'm not sure. In fairness, the crusty growth seemed to wash off, but it did ruin the experience for me. Luckily, I found a color in another brand that is quite similar.

I've started away from both Diamine Pumpkin and Ancient Copper. Testing samples of both, I loved the color. However, the crusting on the nib caused me to stay away. What alternate ink to you find?