Prejudice Against Noodler's Ink

[An old bloke]

I have no prejudice against Noodlers or any other ink. I do have a prejudice towards Diamine inks.

[Ole Juul]

I have no prejudice against Noodlers or any other ink. I do have a prejudice towards Diamine inks.

I'm not understanding the difference between "against" and "towards". What am I missing?

[guyy]

I understand “prejudiced towards” to indicate that the Old Bloke prefers Diamine inks over others.

[Jon Szanto]

I don't know why, but I would often think the phrases are used: (as a negative) "a prejudice against" a thing, while (as a positive) "a predisposition towards" (or "in favor of"). Pre-judging seems to carry a lot of negative baggage, though that probably isn't contained in a true definition.

[Ole Juul]

I understand “prejudiced towards” to indicate that the Old Bloke prefers Diamine inks over others.

Ah! Of course! Duh, I don't know what I was thinking.

Jon Szanto is exactly right and now I feel like an idiot.

[An old bloke]

I have no prejudice against Noodlers or any other ink. I do have a prejudice towards Diamine inks.

I'm not understanding the difference between "against" and "towards". What am I missing?

I understand “prejudiced towards” to indicate that the Old Bloke prefers Diamine inks over others.

I don't know why, but I would often think the phrases are used: (as a negative) "a prejudice against" a thing, while (as a positive) "a predisposition towards" (or "in favor of"). Pre-judging seems to carry a lot of negative baggage, though that probably isn't contained in a true definition.

The word 'prejudice' simply mean 'having previously decided'. It may be used in the negative (against something) or in the positive (for something). To that, we all have 'prejudices' -- preferences, and 'likes and 'dislikes'. Whether one prefers tea or coffee is an example. Does he or she like his or her tea with milk and sugar, milk and no sugar, or neither. That is a matter they have 'pre-judged' (previously decided).

Why it has had a negative connotation attached to it can only be put down to people not really understanding semantics.

[Jon Szanto]

Why it has had a negative connotation attached to it can only be put down to people not really understanding semantics.

I understand how it can happen, but when that misperception is widespread, it becomes a bit more in one's self-interest to take that into account. To "terminate with extreme prejudice" is not going to be a happy occasion, which is an... extreme version of the definition morphing.

[Ole Juul]

... a matter they have 'pre-judged' (previously decided).

Why it has had a negative connotation attached to it can only be put down to people not really understanding semantics.

Yes, and I know better. I guess I was really tired and mentally confused when I posted. I am now totally and thoroughly embarrassed. (:

[FredRydr]

As for me, I avoid Noodlers based on the judgment of those who came to fountain pens before me, not my prejudgement.

When I was first enticed into fountain pens by my friend, the late Jim Rouse, at his Bertram's Inkwell Baltimore store, he cautioned me against putting Noodlers into my new pens, showing what it had done to another. Since then, I was given a similar warning by Richard Binder during my first custom nib grind at a pen show. I presume he saw I was new to the hobby. The controversy continues to this day. With all the proven inks available and the surfeit already in my inkbox, there's no reason to delve into dubious boutique inks when it comes to the care of pens I value.

[TSherbs]

I consider the fear or anxiety around use of Noodler's inks to be unwarranted. I've never had a problem with them in any pen of mine. Until it happens to me, I don't care what other people say. I will add, however, that I don't buy expansive pens. I have never had to discard any pen for any ink that I have put in them.

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[Ole Juul]

I like some of the Noodler's inks, but I'm careful about which pens I use them in because some of them stain and I mind that in a few pens, but not all. Perhaps my trepidations about Noodler's are unwarranted, but I also have problems with mainstream brands. The problem is that many of them, to my conservative way of thinking, aren't really "ink" in that they're not permanent, or they don't mention permanence so I'm unsure. I've even seen "washable", which makes it essentially food coloring to me. I would really like it if more brands would give a proper report of their archival and other physical properties. But that seems to not be the fashion, and perhaps some people would rather be in the dark regarding that can of worms anyway.

[Chuck Naill]

I use Waterman ink and avoid all prejudice toward other ink stuff that may or may not exist.

[TSherbs]

Juul, if an ink has real permanence, it will say so. Otherwise, it has none (and doesn't bother saying that it has none). This seems to be the norm. If you want permanent inks, it's not hard to find them on the internet. There are also some charts around where ink characteristics are compared. Have you seen these?

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[Ole Juul]

@TSherbs, Thanks. Yes, I have no problem finding permanent inks. But I had always naively assumed that permanence was the desired goal and I have a hard time fathoming that non-permanent is indeed the norm. I am slowly waking up to that fact. I guess I had expected that non-permanent inks would be marked as such. Go ahead and laugh.

[silverlifter]

The only reason I won't buy Noodler's inks again is the terrible experience both times I gave them a shot. Lexington Grey and 54th Mass were both feathery, murky messes for me.

Consistency is a hard line for me: if batches are a lottery, I'm not interested in buying a ticket. It's ink, not a crapshoot.

[Jon Szanto]

@TSherbs, Thanks. Yes, I have no problem finding permanent inks. But I had always naively assumed that permanence was the desired goal and I have a hard time fathoming that non-permanent is indeed the norm. I am slowly waking up to that fact. I guess I had expected that non-permanent inks would be marked as such. Go ahead and laugh.

Well, if we go back in time to when most all of the inks were made by the pen manufacturers, think on Sheaffer. They had bottles of ink known as Washable Blue, Blue, and Permanent Blue (and other colors as well). It is likely to assume that only one of those met your understanding of permanence being a part of the ink as a necessity. I know for a fact that the Washable Blue was the ink most used in school, for obvious reasons.

Today, inks for fountain pens serve many purposes, from a maker like Noodlers and the over-the-top focus (not in all their inks, though) on permanence to survive our sun going nova, all the way out to the glitter and sparkle and sheen inks from many companies that are not unlike painting your words on paper, ready to wash - or rub - off and not be a particular concern as to archival qualities. And everything in between.

These days, one looks to archival, document, permanent, and other such terms on an ink to consider they are getting just that.

[SlowMovingTarget]

I regularly use many of the permanent, archival, tamper-proof, fade-resistant Noodler's Inks. Some of those inks do stain the converter, and Manjiro Nakahama Whaleman's Sepia has stained the feed on the Charlie Pen dedicated to it. For me, I'm fine with that. I'm using Pilot Blue-Black and Pilot Iroshizuku Asa-Gao in some of my more expensive pens. I've also started getting into Robert Oster inks, but those are for fun. If I have serious writing (like journaling or notes on writing projects) that I want to last, I'm reaching for Noodler's Ink permanence.

I regularly ink up 54th Massachusetts in a Pilot Metropolitan (F) as it writes one nib size up (spread). I haven't seen issues with the ink damaging the pen, though. If I ink up a pen, I use it every day for at least a page or two. When I get through the volume, I clean the pen out, thoroughly, every time. I've seen some staining on converters, and touch of stain on the TWSBI Eco, but nothing excessive. This is totally subjective, but to me, it means I've gotten utility from those pens.

I've been wary of using these inks in my more expensive pens, for having read Richard Binder's articles. But many of them seen to do with an old formulation of Bay State Blue that melted latex sacks in vintage pens. That would freak me out, but then, I use mostly modern converter and piston-filling pens. Your mileage may vary. Aside from that, Bay State Blue is not a normal fountain pen ink. It is highly basic (alkaline) and must be treated with care. Most of the "bulletproof" inks are not like that, however.

I'll try Rohrer & Klinger Salix, and ESSRI, at some point, both reputedly well-behaved iron gall inks. Everything I've read tells me that the key is just cleaning out the pen properly, though. Even for Noodler's Inks.

I'm curious about what people's actual experience with these inks are. I like them, but discussions like these do make me worry about using them. How have all of you gotten along with Noodler's Inks?

[Lloyd]

My favorite inks come from Noodlers. My least favorite inks might, also.

[BlkWhiteFilmPix]

Over the last ten years since someone at Goulet Pens wrote "thank you" on a packaging slip using Bay State Blue ink, I've used many different Noodler's inks.

Its brilliant blue spoke to me, and while I'm aware of concerns about it damaging pens, for me, pens are for using, so I use BSB in a used Montblanc 149 signature (OBBB) nib without problems. No problems in a 146 either. It does permanently tinge the nib, but that doesn't bother me and it didn't bother the buyer of the 146 to whom I sold it. I did heed Brian's advice at Edison Pens and didn't use BSB in the clear Menlo demonstrator he custom made for me.

Nathan's sense of humor on his labels led me to try other colors including Nikita, Dark Matter, Zhivago (the first movie I saw in a theater was Dr. Zhivago), and Rachmaninoff. His fluorescing inks - Blue Ghost (visible only under UV), Firefly, Eire, Dragon's Napalm, and Hellfire are among my other favorites.

Now if I could just convince some of my correspondents to buy a UV light so I could send them letters written with Blue Ghost.

Best wishes for your writing, and with any Noodler's inks you decide to try.

[guyy]

To "terminate with extreme prejudice" is not going to be a happy occasion, which is an... extreme version of the definition morphing.

Jerry Ziesmer had just that one line and he knocked it out of the park.