rubendh SCAM.. Two Sides to Every Story

[adhoc]

It’s the buyers responsibility to have correct Paypal address set up.

[AzJon]

It’s the buyers responsibility to have correct Paypal address set up.

It is also the seller's responsibility to appropriately insure packages of any value. I've mailed very expensive items in the past and made sure to get the insurance to cover every single penny in the event it was lost or damaged in transit.

[Pterodactylus]

At least here in Europe you don’t have to take care if the seller insures the package or not, he chooses the transportation, it’s always his risk.
And if something is cheap or expensive is for sure irrelevant.

Here for business sellers (and to be treated as a business seller often a few documented sells e.g. on ebay are enough) the seller is not even allowed to put the transportation risk on to the consumers sholders (consumers are special protected).
Even when he let you choose between insured or not insured, such clauses are not valid (between 2 private people the situation might be different, they can agree to almost everything, e.g. exclude warranty, what many people do not know even on private sells you have to give warranty if not explicitly excluded in advance).

The only exception is when you refuse all from the seller offered shipping methods and you as a buyer contract a transportation company to pick up the item. (But in real life something like this most likely will not happen)

[Pterodactylus]

Ruben, did you opened a paypal case?
And did you already got your money back?

[kirchh]

jjm5812, why did you lie to the buyer about your having the pen in your home in an attempt to have the PayPal claim closed, and then laugh about it?

This part doesn't make any sense to me.

--Daniel

[Dhruv]

Ruben, did you opened a paypal case?
And did you already got your money back?

Don't think you can file a PayPal claim after 180 days.

I understand (not agree) that buyer has to receive an item to free the seller of responsibility of safe delivery, but if the buyer gives the wrong address and the package gets lost, don't think the seller has to entertain the buyer any further.
If you are not even capable of giving a correct delivery address (which is your own address in most cases), explains the level of incompetence of the buyer.
Also, I'm not comfortable with the upper hand given to the buyer by PayPal. Both parties should have equal rights.

[Chrissy]

If the buyer paid for an item and has not received it, then he gets his money back. It's quite straightforward. Wherever the parcel is now or where it has been and when doesn't matter. It's the responsibility of the seller to get the item to the buyer.

Frankly I don't think it's as straightforward as that. If the buyer gives wrong address and the package gets delivered to that address and signed by someone at that address, I think it's still buyer's responsibility. Of course, it doesn't apply in this situation because the package was not signed.

No it isn't straightforward in this case. You're quite right. The fact that it travelled to the buyers requested address then travelled back again is really unusual, and not all parcels require a signature on delivery.

[adhoc]

It’s the buyers responsibility to have correct Paypal address set up.

It is also the seller's responsibility to appropriately insure packages of any value. I've mailed very expensive items in the past and made sure to get the insurance to cover every single penny in the event it was lost or damaged in transit.

True. But this really isn’t a scam, whatever way you look at it. They both made some mistakes, but a straight up scam this is not.

[Chrissy]

True. But this really isn’t a scam, whatever way you look at it. They both made some mistakes, but a straight up scam this is not.

Absolutely. Whatever this should be called, it's not a scam. A scammer is someone who sells something with no intention of sending anything.

[Jon Szanto]

If one were to utilize adult language, one might refer to it as a clusterfuck of butthurt. I, for one, would never type that into a Reply window.

[rubendh]

The seller said that the pen has returned to him (in his house) but then goes silent for months after that... litteraly. His last message to me ever was that he had the pen sitting in his house.
I messaged him 5 times after that last message, over the course of months, asking when he will send the pen back but ignores it all.
Wouldn't you percieve this as a scammer? I believe you would aswell...

Combined with his crappy sense of communication (he only replies once every few weeks) and with the fact that he lies about the situation..
After I put this discussion in this board, he explained with screenshots that the pen was in fact not at his house but lost in the mail system. Why wouldn't he just said that to me directly? Would save a lot of insulting..

When a package returns for any reason (declined by recipient, package was opened or damaged during transport, recipient not home, ...), and the package is lost during transport who's responsible?

Anyways. To conclude:

If it's the case that he does not have the pen, indeed, he's not a scammer when you look at it from the point of resending the pen or not.

He is, however, a flatant lier that lies to buyers just to cash in the money. (How is this called... scamming?)


This whole situation will not give me my money back, and will not give me my pen back.
It's just how Jason handled the situation (lying, not insuring an expensive package) that is not right. I will never ever do business with him again and strongly advise other people to do the same.
Indeed, the situation would not have happend would I have given my new adress. I still believe the buyer did not fulfill his responsibilities.

That's my final conclusion and it will not change the situation.
Because of this, I will not reply anymore to these threads.
People still following up on this situation can always message me through PM.

[mmd]

When a package returns for any reason (declined by recipient, package was opened or damaged during transport, recipient not home, ...), and the package is lost during transport who's responsible?

This is a good question actually.

[heraclitus682]

What is for sale in this thread? I must have missed it.

[Pterodactylus]

Also this is an example why I think buying things in a forum is a bad idea.
Not only because I’m annoyed by the huge amount of selling threads.
A forum just does not have any tools, background to support and help in case of troubles.

You are on your own.... just trusting the honesty and integrity of people you do not know,

No transparent seller profile, no seller rating, customer feedback, transaction rating, no advanced buyer protection, no issue handling system (paying, transportation, condition of the items, warranty, return of goods in case something is not as expected), , no transaction tracking, ......

I don’t say the initial situation could not have happened on platforms like ebay, but it most likely wouldn’t end like this as he would have opened a case right when he didn’t received his pen (and sellers most likely often will react differently because they have to take care about their profile otherwise will sell less or nothing anymore) .

Much more buyers protection, seller transparency, issue handling possibilities, support from the platform.

So for me there is not a single good reason to buy something from a simple forum thread, unless you like the thrill in case something isn´t as expected.

Such buys here are based on blind trust, and not all deserve such a trust

[jjm5812]

Under normal circumstances for a transaction I would agree that the seller takes most of the responsibility towards making sure the item is received. Yes, mistakes were made on both sides - however I did everything I could over the course of September - January to get Ruben his pen after it was delivered to the wrong address he provided. In this case I had priced the item and clearly stated that shipping costs would be added onto the listed price. Ruben contacted me at first offering a trade, during this trade I agreed to lower the list price and essentially do a 1:1 equal trade with him. Agreeing to that and assuming we were trading pens I did not include shipping costs into the trade price because we would both be paying shipping for pens sent to one another. The trade never happened as Ruben was unable to obtain the pen he wished to trade me.

Based on his request to purchase the pen I sent him an invoice total with the listed sales price for the pen + shipping costs. The invoice was declined as Ruben explained the price I was invoicing/selling for was not the same as the price I had given under the assumption we would perform a trade. This was referring to the lowered price I offered to make the trade easier on him for a 1:1 trade based on each pens stated value. Shipping costs were not included in the trade price Ruben requested I sell to him for - as I had assumed we would both be shipping each other the pens. While I thought it petty of him to leverage the lower price I specifically stated was the trade value meant to help his trade offer I accepted the discounted price based on Rubens expressed love and seemingly genuine appreciation for the Stipula. I had sold all the Visconti's, OMAS, Pelikans in the sales post of which the Stipula was the last item for sale. I had the means to take a small loss on the pen at that point and I was okay with doing so if it meant helping someone get a pen they dearly wanted while only having limited funds to spend. Normally, for any type of international shipments, I prefer to use USPS International Express which is quick and, in my experience, reliable. Buyer of course pays the shipping fees. At the time I had never had any shipping issues, problematic trades, or poor responses of any sort from the dozens and dozens of pens I had sold - mostly high price $500+ items, though, price is irrelevant and I treat all pens the same way. With the intention of doing Ruben a favor - I accepted the lowered the price and took a loss on the Stipula pen he had expressed he really wanted but could not purchase at list price. I mentioned in this situation that because Ruben would not pay for shipping costs and I would pay it myself that: I would use a cheaper shipping method than I normally preferred, opting for USPS International Priority instead of International Express. I took a hit on the shipping as it was still not cheap - paying for what is normally the buyers expense. Combined with the lowered list price and PayPal fees I received a fairly low return on the pen, but that was okay since I knew Ruben would enjoy it. Ruben acknowledged that cheaper shipping with International Priority was not a problem as long as the pen did not take "over 5 weeks" to be delivered which I assured him shouldn't happen (the delivery notification of the pen to Rubens PayPal address was 10 days after I shipped it). Unfortunately I did not know what I was getting myself into at the time.

While there is undoubtedly bias to both mine and Ruben's responses - I am simply stating the facts, no exaggerations or embellishments. As Ruben states above that my contact and communication was poor - going through our messages my average response time was 1-3 days after you sent a PM. Longest time between responses was exactly 7 days until Christmas/Winter break through January. Keep in mind all other listings and transactions of mine had long been completed Rubens was the only one I was dealing during the school year, something I always try to avoid as I am busy(I post sale listings when I am not in school and have the time to give potential buyers the service they deserve.) Nonetheless because Ruben's package was delivered to his PayPal address and not his actual address his transaction ran into the school year. I had exam weeks, out of country travels (winter break 4 weeks/Spring break 10 days), and various other duties to attend to. I did my best to accommodate any questions Ruben had. Within our conversations I linked him the tracking number on 5 separate occasions to refer to as most information's he requested could be found using the USPS tracking number. From his responses and questions it's clear he ever decided to take advantage of that wonderful feature. I believe that - had Ruben decided to use the invaluable tracking number to fact check the status of his package instead of relying on me to paraphrase the tracking information for him - this entire situation and drama could probably have been avoided. Ruben would know exactly what happened to the package, and would know whether or not what I said was true or false. I repeatedly referred Ruben to the tracking number so he could check and see exactly what was going on with the package at any moment. While this all took place over the 5 month period, I had also dedicated tons of my personal time towards visiting the post office regularly to check and see if anything could be done regarding the Stipula package, as well as when the tracking was stagnant for longer periods of time. When I could not spend the 20min bus ride to and from the post office to my dorm I spent what must have been over 15-20 hours on the waiting line for USPS' 1800 customer service number to speak with a representative. Be prepare to wait minimum times of an hour or more to speak to someone if you use that number, it can be very helpful though. Ultimately over the course of 5 months Sept 2017 - January 2018 I never failed to get back to Ruben when I had the opportunity and time to give him a proper response to his inquiries. Personally I felt I went above and beyond what I was expected of me - I could have just sent Ruben the tracking and been done with him. Being the scammer Ruben believes me to be: Looking back, I regret the tens of hours I wasted trying to help Ruben recover the package after delivery and shipment confirmation to his PayPal address. Answering Rubens questions with answers easily found using the USPS tracking system ultimately gives me the impression Ruben was simply too lazy or incompetent to do his due diligence using the tracking number that was provided, repeatedly.


Ruben's biggest argument is a statement of mine where I told him I had the package in my hands.
Many people ask why I told Ruben I had the package in my hands. The situation was: After 4 months of waiting, Belgium customs finally released the pen back to the US and was eventually in the possession of my local post office. The tracking stated the package had been sorted and in my experience the next step is delivery. At this point I believed it only a day or two before the package was in my hands and so I lied, yes, and I told Ruben that I had the pen when in fact I did not have it physically in my possession but fully expected to in the near future which would have not been an issue. Unfortunately this blew back on me because despite the package being sorted by USPS as shown on the tracking, it was not sorted to be loaded and sent for re-delivery to me, but instead sorted as dead mail and sent to the Mail Recovery Center in Atlanta. There was nothing I could do at this point besides filing a Search Claim for USPS Mail Recovery Center in hopes that they would find the package and send it back to me. Information provided to me by a USPS customer service representative, using USPS 1800 Customer Service line, revealed that the package was marked as damaged by someone at my local post office which is why it labeled dead mail and sent to MRC Atlanta. The most likely scenario for this as provided by customer service rep. was that the shipping label was damaged and they could not determine where to deliver the pen anymore. Understandable considering the amount of traveling the package did with and a paper label. Even after filing monthly claims to the Mail Recovery Center, to this day, I have not received information that the package was located nor have I received delivery of the Stipula. I have told Ruben to call this number to confirm for himself the situation regarding the Stipula. Once again Ruben, if you just used a bit of effort to call the USPS 1800 C.S. phone number, wait 30min-1hr, and speak to a representative (menu extension 3 3 8) - an action I have done countless times for him - and something that would be definitive proof towards revealing the facts and the truth on the final whereabouts of the Stipula and any other stops during its journey since Sept. 2017. In fact, anyone could ask for an "extensive search" for tracking # CX328804417US as a "the package was sent to the Mail Recovery Center" to reveal the truth/facts and shed light on the final whereabouts and anything in between for the Stipula. I suspect the truth is not as important to Ruben as creating drama and attempts to label me a "Scammer" otherwise he would have called the number like I suggested awhile back, or possibly even tried to utilize the tracking number I gave him.


I realized that in 2017, as a seller, I was probably naive and inexperienced I had nothing but smooth and wonderful experiences with regard to past sales, transactions, and communications between other FP forum members and fountain pen collectors/hobbyists. Having never had a bad experience from any one of the many deals I was party to - probably made me too comfortable with regard to making transactions within the FP community. I feel I did everything in my power to try and resolve the problems caused by shipping to Ruben's PayPal address - not his real shipping address that he later revealed to me upon delivery to be completely different. I've sunk a lot of time and effort into this one transaction with Ruben; more than all the rest of my 80+ transactions combined. Some important lessons were learned from this transaction. Despite that I have continued to enjoy participating in the community and hobby as I did before meeting Ruben. Mistakes were made on both sides of this transaction. Sure.

I've never scammed anyone, or been interested in scamming anyone. While Ruben is determined to argue otherwise - if only he could have skillfully executed the copy and paste, advanced technique, with copied CX328804417US tracking number pasted into USPS.com in the past. Or, at this point, because tracking is no longer available online toss his fears and dial USPS 1(800)275-8777 Customer Service and speak to a USPS representative over the phone to do an "extensive search" for CX328804417US. He may have been able to find some comfort in the truth of the situation.

[Jon Szanto]

[mhosea]

I confess I don't have time to sort all of this out, but from what I understand, the buyer provided an incorrect address. Advantage seller, but that just means the buyer is on the hook for the full cost of re-shipping, or the original shipping cost can be deducted from the refund if the deal is off. It doesn't mean the seller is off the hook to deliver the merchandise or issue a refund. There is some risk in mail-order, which is why the shipper can buy insurance. It's always seemed strange to me that sellers will give buyers the option of paying for insurance, as if the buyer were the primary insured. The way I figure it, shipping insurance is something I, the shipper, buy to mitigate the risk that the item will get lost or damaged in transit. In fact, I have rarely bought shipping insurance, but at the same time I explicitly considered myself "self-insured", as I was prepared to take the loss if something went awry, which it has once or twice, though not in large matters. For example, I must have torqued down the cap on a TWSBI a little too tight when I packaged it, and vibration and/or temperature variations in transit resulted in the cap cracking. I just refunded the whole shebang and moved on with my life. That's just the way it is. There is no life without risk. Shit happens.

I find the whole matter of claiming to have received a pen back when it wasn't back to be rather troubling despite the explanation, but fortunately, it is irrelevant to the correct disposition of this matter.
The bottom line is that the buyer paid for a pen that they don't have, and they contributed to this result by providing an incorrect address. The seller should refund the buyer's payment less the actual cost of shipping.

[Chrissy]

The way I figure it, shipping insurance is something I, the shipper, buy to mitigate the risk that the item will get lost or damaged in transit. In fact, I have rarely bought shipping insurance, but at the same time I explicitly considered myself "self-insured", as I was prepared to take the loss if something went awry, which it has once or twice, though not in large matters. For example, I must have torqued down the cap on a TWSBI a little too tight when I packaged it, and vibration and/or temperature variations in transit resulted in the cap cracking. I just refunded the whole shebang and moved on with my life. That's just the way it is. There is no life without risk. Shit happens.

I find the whole matter of claiming to have received a pen back when it wasn't back to be rather troubling despite the explanation, but fortunately, it is irrelevant to the correct disposition of this matter.

The bottom line is that the buyer paid for a pen that they don't have, and they contributed to this result by providing an incorrect address. The seller should refund the buyer's payment less the actual cost of shipping.

This is a well put post, and the final sentence seems like the right solution.

Although the buyer should have known his correct mailing address, and made 100% certain that was the address on his PayPal account, it should only potentially cost him two lots of shipping costs instead of one. That should be the only cost of his mistake. I'm sure he's not the first person to buy something then become aware that the wrong address was on his PayPal account, and he won't be the last.

If he ends up with absolutely nothing after paying money to buy an item from a seller, then that can never be right. He surely has to get his money back.

[Dhruv]

The bottom line is that the buyer paid for a pen that they don't have, and they contributed to this result by providing an incorrect address. The seller should refund the buyer's payment less the actual cost of shipping.

Just asking: No penalties?
Even if the seller sends it back to the new address by taking more postage, it requires more time and effort on the part of the seller. Surely that is worth something. It was something that shouldn't have been required in the first place had the buyer bothered to check the details he entered on PayPal.

[rubendh]

Just asking: No penalties?
Even if the seller sends it back to the new address by taking more postage, it requires more time and effort on the part of the seller. Surely that is worth something. It was something that shouldn't have been required in the first place had the buyer bothered to check the details he entered on PayPal.

I ofcourse offered to pay the new shipping and packing costs. If he'd want to be compensated for the extra effort aswell I'd have no problem paying 5 usd more. No problem!