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Thread: rubendh SCAM.. Two Sides to Every Story

  1. #141
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: rubendh SCAM.. Two Sides to Every Story

    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post

    I disagree. Probabilities do matter in negligence cases. The test is not whether everyone is aware, rather whether a reasonably prudent person's actions would have been informed by consideration of the possibility. I seriously doubt that most reasonably prudent people would be reluctant to refuse a parcel because they fear it will be lost by the carrier. At any rate, this is, at least, a bona fide point of disagreement that we would have to let the judge or jury decide.
    You're moving the goalposts to probabilities. "Everyone is aware" is a shorthand way of saying reasonably prudent people recognize that there is a risk of loss in shipping. There will be no judge or jury, other than in the court of public opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    You haven't established proximate causality. Every time the question comes up, you fall back on an argument that the buyer was the cause in fact. That's a necessary but not sufficient condition. The analogy was an example of cause in fact not being sufficient to establish proximate causality. I have claimed that the carrier's error was the proximate cause. The carrier's error was intervening and converted the nature and severity of the loss that would have flowed naturally from the buyer's mistakes. Note that the buyer's error did not place the carrier in a difficult or unusual situation, rather a routine one from their perspective. Merely having put the carrier in position where it was possible for them to err is not ipso facto sufficient to be held responsible for the carrier's mistakes.
    I believe I have established proximate causality, and I know I have as regards my own opinion. I'm not falling back to any argument, I'm reiterating my consistent argument. I already said this was going to happen. I'm happy to clarify if you don't understand why I've arrived at this conclusion. If you do understand and simply disagree, that's fine. You're not going to change my mind simply stating that or that you think I'm wrong. I still think your analogy is poor, flawed and irrelevant. Can you argue your case without introducing receptionists and flat tires?

    I disagree that the buyer didn't put the carrier in a position to err. Had they not refused delivery, we wouldn't be talking about any of this.

    We've apparently reached an impasse.

    --edit--

    I'll try to provide a little clarity in the role and responsibility of the shipper, since that is a point others have raised as well.

    The shipper has a responsibility to deliver the item, and this is the crux of the contract between them and the seller. This was satisfied.
    The shipper found themselves with a duty to return the item to the seller, due to the negligent action of the buyer.
    The shipper has not satisfied that duty. If they do, and the item is returned; clearly the seller should refund the money.
    The shipper perhaps has a financial obligation to the seller, but this hinges on the terms of the delivery contract; and I don't know those details. If there is compensation to the seller, then certainly that should be sent to the buyer.

    None of that is relevant to the current obligations between the seller and buyer. I am looking at the issue with the assumption that the pen is lost for good, and one (or both) parties will bear financial loss. For the reasons I've laid out earlier, I think the buyer bears 100% of the burden and the seller bears 0%. Should the seller choose to compensate the buyer in some fashion, I see that as simply a matter of good form / good faith. Speaking of good faith, that notion seems absent in your evaluation.

    Lastly, by posting in a very "matter of fact" way; I realize there is a significant potential for it to be interpreted in a negative way. By being terse or matter of fact, I'm not trying to be rude; so my apologies if that is the perception by anyone.
    Last edited by dneal; April 21st, 2018 at 11:40 AM.

  2. #142
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: rubendh SCAM.. Two Sides to Every Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post

    We are all watching this conversation between you and dneal with great interest. dneal said he was in the military, so perhaps he is a retired military prosecutor or something. Might we ask who you are? You sound like a law professor emeritus or a QC. Of course, if you don't mind letting us know.
    I'm still in the military, but not a prosecutor. Military officers get a lot of practical experience with law, from administering punishment to contracting legalities. I have dealt with hundreds of cases regarding property accountability. I was applying those principles to the issue at hand, in an effort to offer a different perspective. I don't know if mhosea is a lawyer or not. It has little bearing on the validity of the argument though. Either one makes a sound argument, or they don't. There can of course be competing viewpoints that are equally compelling, but it's up to the reader (in this case) to draw their own conclusions.

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    Default Re: rubendh SCAM.. Two Sides to Every Story

    Can we Mark this thread as sold so it can be closed. Please move the conversation to another section on this forum and continue there.

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    Default Re: rubendh SCAM.. Two Sides to Every Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
    Thank you both for the most amusing and interesting read. I apologise for saying this as this must be a very painful experience for you both.

    Mr. Ruben, I guess we all learn the hard way at times. I guess the critical mistake was closing the paypal claim. We all learnt from this event not to ever, ever, ever close the claim until the money is refunded. It would have been very simple. Also, you were a bit sloppy and haphazard in your actions (like ****ing up the address and not communicating with your mother etc). Might have to be a bit more careful when some money is involved.

    Mr. jjm, my sympathy for what you went through. You did send the pen and spent a lot of time on trying to sort this out. But to a lot of us, all that is simply, utterly and absolutely nullified (from a moral point of view) by the fact that you deviously lied to Mr Ruben to close the paypal claim. I guess that is the lesson for you. Be honest. Things that go around do and will come around. If you do gain anything from this (by not losing anything) you will most certainly lose somewhere else. That is just life.

    Good luck to you both. As much as I want to be contianually entertained by this I do hope you both will achieve some sort of a mutually agreeable conclusion.
    To clarify: The PayPal claim was not actively closed by Ruben. The PayPal claim was closed by PayPal. I don't recall exactly how long after I made that statement to Ruben in a PM, through the forum, but PayPal closed the case; Ruben was not the one who closed it. Again, the case was closed by PayPal not Ruben. If the tables were turned, I would be the one taking the entirety of the loss. That is: the loss I took selling the pen, discounted, to Ruben based on his limited budget, the shipping fees, and the pen itself. In that situation there would be no other choice than accept it and move on.

    To be honest I found this entire thread both interesting to read and amusing at times as well. I personally don't take any offense or hold any grudges to differing opinions or any opinions/statements made in this thread. I guess when it comes to online communications or really anything that occurs online between strangers, I feel no personal attachment. That's not to say I don't cherish or create/have any personal relationships through meeting people online, I certainly do. However, other than feeling the need to provide backstory to Rubens original post - I had no other purpose or reason to bother responding. Thanks to everyone who took the time to read and comment, I hope you either found some enjoyment or interest in reading through it. If you didn't - I apologize and I suppose you could always have made the choice not to click on it. Thanks again.
    Last edited by jjm5812; April 21st, 2018 at 12:42 PM.

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    Default Re: rubendh SCAM.. Two Sides to Every Story

    BTW can someone explain to me how to mark the thread as SOLD? I will mark it SOLD/close it later tonight. Thanks

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    Default Re: rubendh SCAM.. Two Sides to Every Story

    In the lighter blue banner at the top of the thread posts, there is a drop down menu titled "Thread Tools". Click that and "Mark this thread as Sold".

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    Useless mhosea's Avatar
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    Default Re: rubendh SCAM.. Two Sides to Every Story

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Lastly, by posting in a very "matter of fact" way; I realize there is a significant potential for it to be interpreted in a negative way. By being terse or matter of fact, I'm not trying to be rude; so my apologies if that is the perception by anyone.
    Not by me. You're one of my favorite people here.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    I don't know if mhosea is a lawyer or not. It has little bearing on the validity of the argument though. Either one makes a sound argument, or they don't. There can of course be competing viewpoints that are equally compelling, but it's up to the reader (in this case) to draw their own conclusions.
    And that is why. FWIW, IANAL. Last time I checked, lawyers could hardly agree on anything, anyway.
    --
    Mike

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    Default Re: rubendh SCAM.. Two Sides to Every Story

    How about you two represent each side and go to a small claim court? The result is clear to me but it will be asmusing.

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    Senior Member Pterodactylus's Avatar
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    Default Re: rubendh SCAM.. Two Sides to Every Story

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    How about you two represent each side and go to a small claim court? The result is clear to me but it will be asmusing.
    How should this happen?
    Ruben is located in Europe, the seller in the US.

    If the seller would be in the same country (or at least within the EU), and if Ruben has a insurance to cover the law suit costs than I already would have suggested to persue a law suit.

    Iˋm no lawyer but I would bet that Ruben would get his money back (at least in Europe, and the seller had to cover the law suit costs at the end)

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    Default Re: rubendh SCAM.. Two Sides to Every Story

    I don't know. But as long as there are two lawyers in the same country, I imagine it could happen. Just have to have one side sign some paperwork to fully authorize the lawyer to represent him.

    I mean these two lawyer like persons already argued a lot here. A court will be a better place and will get the thing solved.
    Last edited by mmd; April 21st, 2018 at 04:16 PM.

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    Default Re: rubendh SCAM.. Two Sides to Every Story

    Oh FFS please let this end.

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