rubendh SCAM.. Two Sides to Every Story

[rubendh]

What happens when the Buyer asks for insurance of $50 on a package worth $500 to avoid customs fees? AND the package goes missing...

You can't avoid custom fees and I don't think that insuring a package has to do anything with custom fees in fact.
Insuring is (what I think) to mitigate the cost when a package is lost. Depending on the value of what the seller insured the package for he or she can get that money back when it happens.

The seller delibiratly chose to not insure it, probably to cut costs.

[Dhruv]

Yes, the seller lied to me and said he has the pen back and sitting in his house. That lie made me close the dispute and i am not able to reopen it.

Well, now it's beyond any sort of help. PayPal won't help anymore because that is the clause of their contract.
All of us can bark here for as long as we like but it is not going to change anything. You are not going to get the money back, and you are probably not going to get the pen either.

[Farmboy]

What happens when the Buyer asks for insurance of $50 on a package worth $500 to avoid customs fees? AND the package goes missing...

You can't avoid custom fees and I don't think that insuring a package has to do anything with custom fees in fact.
Insuring is (what I think) to mitigate the cost when a package is lost. Depending on the value of what the seller insured the package for he or she can get that money back when it happens.

The seller delibiratly chose to not insure it, probably to cut costs.

Not what I asked. If you insure a package for $500 you better declare that on the customs form. If you declare a customs value of $50 and insure it for more you will only collect the $50.

I asked what happens when a buyer asks for no insurance or asks that the value be declared below the selling cost AND the pen goes missing.

[kirchh]

...so I lied, yes, and I told Ruben that I had the pen when in fact I did not have it physically in my possession...

Are you intentionally leaving out the fact that you intentionally lied so that the clock would run out on a PayPal claim, and that after that happened, you admitted it and laughed about it?

That seems important. Why would you write such an extensive, detailed chronology, yet leave out that crucial event?

--Daniel

[mmd]

Your logic is a total mystery to me. We are never talking about causality of events, we are talking about the causality between mistakes and bad consequences. Causality of events is not even meaningful. Who's mistake results in the undesirable results?

The seller made no mistake till the point when the package was refused. He send the package to the requested address once received payment. That's it. Sure, there's no full insurance but choosing to take that risk is not a mistake. The seller choose to believe that USPS will transport the package safely to the requested address. In the case when item is damaged or lost on its way to the requested address, I believe he will just take the loss. As we all know, the package was transported to the requested address and as expected by the seller safely.

However, the seller miscalculated. I bet he never thought the package could get returned and he thought that way because he was misinformed. He was informed by the buyer, that's the correct address. Of course, a package could also get returned even if it's the correct address but I don't think it's rediculous to say, the wrong address makes the risk of getting returned much higher. The risk of not having a full insurance ended up much higher than what the seller was expecting because it has to travel twice the distance and resulted in the loss of the package. That's the story.

As an analogue, the seller bought a lottery, saying there's a 50% chance to win. However, he's misinformed and the actual winning rate is just 25%. This is clearly false advertising and fraudulent. I believe the buyer doesn't really mean to diminish the seller but this mistake boosted the risk. As we saw, it's exactly the extra risk created by the misinformation resulted in the loss of the package.

I don't see how you get the number $50. To me it sounds like the situation when a driver rushes through the red light and hit a person and the driver claims that he should only be fined for $200 for rushing through the red light. If the driver's mistake does not cause serious result, it's $200 just to give a warning. If there's a bad result, it could be anything. On the other hand, if the driver drives safely and a person jumps out of the bush and gets hit by the car, the driver only has miniml responsibility. Sure, the event that driver drives the car partially caused the bad consequence, but the driver made little mistake.

It's the causality between mistake and bad consequence that matters. Both sides made mistake and you don't have to agree with me on whose mistake caused the bad result. I just don't think it's as simply as what you claim: buyer only made a $50 mistake and with the insurance included, the mistakes worth about $150 in total in the best case.

As what I have seen, the seller has been considerate about the pricing and that also affected his decision to take the risk. The buyer misinformed the seller and resulted in an increased risk and the increased part resulted in the loss of the package. The seller lied to the buyer to get the Paypal case closed. Both sides made mistakes back and forth and I think there are still plenty space for negotiation if both sides are willing to.

Claiming buyer only made a $50 mistake is not consistent with the fact and is also not beneficial to get them through this unpleasant experience. It's a $150 loss at best and $350 loss at worst. I don't feel like it's a life threatening problem to either side. I believe it could get sorted out if both sides just chill down and be a little more considerate. That's it.

[Dhruv]

Not what I asked. If you insure a package for $500 you better declare that on the customs form. If you declare a customs value of $50 and insure it for more you will only collect the $50.

I asked what happens when a buyer asks for no insurance or asks that the value be declared below the selling cost AND the pen goes missing.

These people (who are saying that it's seller's fault) would probably still hold the seller responsible for any loss in transit even if they expressly asked the seller to declare below the actual value.

But if you ask the seller to value below the actual cost, then you would be responsible in case the item goes missing in transit.

In any case, a well deserved outcome.

[mhosea]

What happens when the Buyer declines insured shipping? AND the package goes missing...

In order to give the buyer the option of declining the insurance and be off the hook for the lost item as seller, you're going to have to be careful about where you do business and how you receive payment. For example,

Ebay: "If a buyer doesn't receive their item, they're entitled to a refund unless you can provide tracking information showing that it was delivered."
PayPal: "If an order doesn’t arrive or it doesn’t match the description, we’ll reimburse the full cost of eligible purchases plus original shipping." (guess where the funds for the reimbursement come from).
Visa: (dispute condition 13.1, cardholder claims merchandise not received) Provide documentation to prove that the cardholder or authorized person received the merchandise or
services as agreed. (else the chargeback stands)

[mmd]

What happens when the Buyer declines insured shipping? AND the package goes missing...

In order to give the buyer the option of declining the insurance and be off the hook for the lost item as seller, you're going to have to be careful about where you do business and how you receive payment. For example,

Ebay: "If a buyer doesn't receive their item, they're entitled to a refund unless you can provide tracking information showing that it was delivered."
PayPal: "If an order doesn’t arrive or it doesn’t match the description, we’ll reimburse the full cost of eligible purchases plus original shipping." (guess where the funds for the reimbursement come from).
Visa: (dispute condition 13.1, cardholder claims merchandise not received) Provide documentation to prove that the cardholder or authorized person received the merchandise or
services as agreed. (else the chargeback stands)

Sorry to let you down and I guess you have to be careful about where you buy things. If a buyer refuses a package, all buyers protection will be nullified. At least thats the Ebay and Paypal rule. So I doubt, even if a Paypal case was opened till the end, the buyer will get the money back. Refusing a package is clearly not not receiving it and is also not not as described because the buyer never opened it. Also, in the case of not as described, the buyer has to provide the proof of delivery for the returned package to ge refund.

[mhosea]

Your logic is a total mystery to me.

Yeah, no kidding.

But moving on, there is still a possibility that the pen will be found and returned to the seller. It doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility if it still has a tracking number that shows it heading off to the USPS dead mail facility. The $50 thing was a very rough guess of what the cost would have been to the seller if the USPS hadn't lost the package. I gather the difference in our positions is that I think the seller is liable for the loss and the buyer is not, while you believe both are jointly liable somehow. Anyway, I believe it was the buyer who tossed out the $50 figure. Take it with a grain of salt. It may be low because if the package hadn't been lost, the seller would have been charged return shipping. So perhaps it should be doubled. The idea would be that if the parcel is located and returned some months hence, the seller will break even, as they will have the pen back and have been reimbursed for any of the postage expenses associated with the misadventure.

[mhosea]

What happens when the Buyer declines insured shipping? AND the package goes missing...

In order to give the buyer the option of declining the insurance and be off the hook for the lost item as seller, you're going to have to be careful about where you do business and how you receive payment. For example,

Ebay: "If a buyer doesn't receive their item, they're entitled to a refund unless you can provide tracking information showing that it was delivered."
PayPal: "If an order doesn’t arrive or it doesn’t match the description, we’ll reimburse the full cost of eligible purchases plus original shipping." (guess where the funds for the reimbursement come from).
Visa: (dispute condition 13.1, cardholder claims merchandise not received) Provide documentation to prove that the cardholder or authorized person received the merchandise or
services as agreed. (else the chargeback stands)

Sorry to let you down and I guess you have to be careful about where you buy things. If a buyer refuses a package, all buyers protection will be nullified. At least thats the Ebay and Paypal rule. So I doubt, even if a Paypal case was opened till the end, the buyer will get the money back. Refusing a package is clearly not not receiving it and is also not not as described because the buyer never opened it. Also, in the case of not as described, the buyer has to provide the proof of delivery for the returned package to ge refund.

Where in Farmboy's hypothetical question was it predicated that the item was refused? Did I miss it, or did you misread it?

[mmd]

I didn't misread it. I just want to point out keep listing these policies will not bring you anywhere. I don't think FarmBoy asked about how Ebay or Paypal or Visa will handle this. In my understanding, his question is about who should be responsible for the loss. First, these policies don't work as you might imagine. Second, buying and selling on a forum goes way beyond buyer's protection or seller's protection. I trust my buyer will not intentionally damage the pen. Otherwise, there are enumorous ways they could screw me up. And I trust the seller will send me the pen as described. Otherwise, I have no confidence in buying. And when something undesirable happens, we can sort it out without filing a claim through Paypal or Ebay.

[rubendh]

It's the causality between mistake and bad consequence that matters. Both sides made mistake and you don't have to agree with me on whose mistake caused the bad result. I just don't think it's as simply as what you claim: buyer only made a $50 mistake and with the insurance included, the mistakes worth about $150 in total in the best case.

As what I have seen, the seller has been considerate about the pricing and that also affected his decision to take the risk. The buyer misinformed the seller and resulted in an increased risk and the increased part resulted in the loss of the package. The seller lied to the buyer to get the Paypal case closed. Both sides made mistakes back and forth and I think there are still plenty space for negotiation if both sides are willing to.

Claiming buyer only made a $50 mistake is not consistent with the fact and is also not beneficial to get them through this unpleasant experience. It's a $150 loss at best and $350 loss at worst. I don't feel like it's a life threatening problem to either side. I believe it could get sorted out if both sides just chill down and be a little more considerate. That's it.

Thanks for the imput everybody - from both sides.

Please do remember. On january 4th Jason told me 'Hey Ruben, I got your pen sitting in my home right now. There currently is a snow storm going on and I'll reship it to you asap.' (https://i.imgur.com/5YLClNl.png). This was his last thing I ever heard from him. I constantly asked for updates and he simply went full silent and ignorant.

Now that we come to a conclusion that he had not the pen, he is not a scammer as I first thought. (I believe you would think that too when somebody goes silent after saying the above).
Anyway. He is not, and I'm sorry for calling him out on that initially. I feel I need to say that.

I agree that this in this situation we both made mistakes, and that we both made a 150 usd hit on this.
I hope the Jason sees it this way aswell, and we can divide the loss that way, solving the problem and moving on.

I'm getting exhausted of discuting and hope to settle it this way. If you're reading this Jason (seller) I'd like to hear your input.

[Pterodactylus]

Despite the fact that I see the seller clearly responsible to return the money as the transport risk was his risk.
Untaken that this would be a inconvenient lesson to learn as a business man.

This fine after school business man seems to keep the paid money and will most likely claim from the carrier the 200 dollar insurance as a bonus (as we learned that such international packages are insured up to this amount).

So take care with which people you make business, especially on such a forum and if they are in a different country than you.
Don‘t expect service, warranty or any other type of customer care from such buys.
Don‘t do it if you can not afford a complete or partial loss.
Donˋt do it if you don‘t want to take at least some risks and be aware of the risks dealing with unknown people in foreign countries.

As I previously said I would always prefer a selling platform instead of a forum because of the transparency, the platform support, the additional possibilities in case of a problem.

Buying something in a forum is comparable to buying a foreign newspaper read the small advertisements and order from there.

Many of the sellers here are no business man and as we see also do not act as business man.
Many are not aware of their liabilities (duties, risks, warranty,.....as all business man have in all countries).
It will be difficult to persue a law suit in case of problems, you can’t even be sure to have the right identity of the seller.

And these sellers are aware of this and count on this.
The anonymity of an forum is ideal for them.

I don‘t say that most of them want scam people per default, but in case of troubles often problems start as they do not want to take the responsibilities and obligations of selling something (just the profit).

If you still want to take the risk, never trust what the seller is telling you in case of problems.
Don‘t wait too long to get your money back.

Always choose payment methods where you have a good chance to get your money back
Do not trust what the seller tells you, in case of troubles or if something take longer open a case at your payment provider and get your money back, never close a case before all problems are sorted out.

Consider that you often deal with people which are not real business man.
People often just try to make some easy bucks trading with pens. (Living room traders).

I would always recommend to buy from a big selling platform instead of here.
There you still can run into troubles but have much more possibilities to stay save (seller profile, feedback, tool/platform support, transparency, customer feedback,...)

[Farmboy]

I've lost track of who sold what to whom and my ice is gone.

I like the seller/buyer split the difference both admitting fault.

If there is an insurance payout then both buyer and seller should also split that.

Should the pen turn up I'd advise buyer and seller to return any funds from an insurance payout so there is a chance Karma doesn't bite anyone.

Whom ever winds up with the pen if it is found should return the split cost to the other party.

Likely worth mentioning that both buyer and seller have done nothing to enhance their buyer/seller relationship in future business deals with other members on said board.

Problem solved? I think so. Buyer has stepped up now we need the seller to step up and refund half. Please keep us posted.

In both scenarios FarmBoy posed he was ignoring PayPal, eBay, and any other constraints that we can dream up. He just wants to know if the seller eats it or the buyer eats it. Assume the agreement is documented in an email.

[mmd]

Well, most of the time I find forum members easier to deal with and the buying/selling process is much more interactive than say Ebay. Sellers know more about their pens, have more detailed descriptions, more open to trade and reasonable offers...... Buyers know better about what they exactly want/will get, ask more questions before buying, say kind words if they like the pen...... It's just totally different from Ebay or Goulet or whatever professional businessman out there. All systems have holes and can be taken advantage of if you really want to. It's ultimately just your preference plus trust.

The whole fountain pen thing is a hobby for me. It's not a job, even the opposite in some sense. It's not always about just getting the best deal with the best buyers protection or selling at the highest possible price. Trading with other forum members is fun in itself. After all when I recall elementary school time when we traded those collective cards in school, fellow card collectors have stronger impressions than the cards themselves.

[jjm5812]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I think it's fair to see any and all opinions on the matter aside from my own. I did not realize that USPS had an automatic insurance of $200 on international packages as I have never had to file for any claims for any items I've ever shipped. Generally USPS has been very good to me in terms of reliability in getting packages to the directed location on a package - this is experience I've had from shipping hundreds of items aside from fountain pens. In this case I will check and try to file a claim on the USPS package for the $200 insurance or whatever amount I may be entitled to/be able to get back from USPS. The package was declared dead mail though so I am not sure if that effects the outcome of the claim. I have filed multiple Search Claims for the package. Whatever amount I get back can go to the buyer aka Ruben, I have no problems doing that. Had I ever shipped a damaged item, item that was damaged during transport, item that was never delivered to the correct address - I have no qualms or issues offering full refund immediately.

To the user who mentioned I was a seller/businessman selling items to make profit or acting like a business. Unfortunately I am simply a collector looking to share and expand my collection, nothing more. In truth I only ever sell pens at the price I purchased them for if not at a lower price like in this case. I was a student at the time, yes, but I did not spend my time collecting fountain pens to turn a profit but as a hobby and personal interest of mine. The original purchase price of the Stipula on my end was $550 at a local pen shop. I received a discount from retail because I was good friends with the owner and frequently made large purchases there, on top of spending time just to hang out and chat. I sold it to Ruben for $350 instead of $400, so there was not much of a profit there.

I agree certain mistakes were made on both sides and I agree that lying about the pen being in my possession to allow the PayPal case to close 3 hours later was not the best or most honest decision I've made. It was a regretful and desperate decision I made in order to purchase some Christmas presents. I had previously asked Ruben if it was possible for him to close or hold off on the PayPal case until after Christmas.

Maybe as a seller I don't share the same views as everyone else in where the responsibilities and duties of a seller end. Personally I feel I did my best to ensure the package would be delivered to the appropriate address that I was provided according to the buyers PayPal. Unfortunately I was not informed until after the package was delivered to the address, that it was refused by the buyers mother. Going through our conversation again, the buyer said:

Hello



Many thanks for the update!

I'm very excited to receive the pen I've been looking for for a long time



However, since I'll be gone (and don't live with my parents anymore), I'd need to know when the pen arrives so my parent can go fetch it!



I'd need to know when the pen arrives, so could you let me know when you receive the 'out for delivery' notification?

In any case the package was delivered to the buyers PayPal address, however, it turns out that his mom received the package and according to the USPS tracking at the time, which I copied into our conversation:

"Your item could not be delivered on October 5, 2017 at 2:05 pm in BELGIUM due to the item being refused by the addressee. It is being returned to the sender."

I am not sure how people will interpret this information. There was signature required on delivery. But I hope this clears up any questions about the delivery of the package to the destination address Ruben provided. To me it also represented the fulfillment of the contract or duties I am morally bound to as a seller. All the extra time and effort I put in over the next 5 months was simply me trying my best to achieve a happy conclusion to the transaction for both the buyer and myself. I would have been happy to know Ruben received and loved the pen he had expressed such interest in. I loved the Stipula, had it custom tuned at a show, and used/owned it for over 4-5 years while babying it. In any situation where the package is damaged during transit, not received as described, or lost in transit to the destination provided to me - I wouldn't hesitate or have any problems refunding, and in fact would probably apologize to the buyer for the trouble. It is possible maybe even probable I may have considered some alternative resolution had my experiences dealing with Ruben been pleasant and respectful instead of increasingly rude and distasteful.

In any case I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to read the thread (it's really long now), and or, post their opinions on the matter. While I may agree or disagree with opinions or statements made, I respect and appreciate the thought and time put into writing them. Ultimately I believe I have spent enough time over this transaction and put it in the past months ago. I just wanted to show and prove that I am not/was not the scammer Rubendh wanted everyone to think I was.

Funnily enough...
Early on in our messages Ruben stated "I've been burned once when I bought something and never got it." Now I am curious as to why that might have been. I clearly remember his PayPal address was same/still incorrect months later when he opened his claim - I suggested again that he change it for future sellers/transactions. I've never had a single issue even with the thousands $$ I've spent over the past 4-5 years on FP forums. Also never had any problems selling and delivering before and after meeting Ruben.

Thanks again everyone.

[mhosea]

In both scenarios FarmBoy posed he was ignoring PayPal, eBay, and any other constraints that we can dream up. He just wants to know if the seller eats it or the buyer eats it. Assume the agreement is documented in an email.

The commentary my response received notwithstanding, my point was not to emphasize those particular entities as constraints, rather to illustrate that the concept of buyer-optional shipping insurance is rather more narrow in scope than you might think, than you probably think. Whether you like it or not, you are dealing with constraints, and ignoring those constraints is likely to earn you a wrong answer to your question. If the package goes missing and never arrives, it matters how you were paid. The most significant infrastructure we have for guaranteed payment in mail order commerce would be credit cards, PayPal, and the like. This infrastructure can perform chargebacks, and they generally require more than just proof of shipping to prevent that from happening in the event that the shipment never arrives. Consequently, in that context, buyer-optional shipping insurance doesn't make any sense because the seller eats it. In other contexts, e.g. cash or check payment in a free-wheeling venue like this one, buyers and sellers can negotiate liability unless one or both are governed by local statutes that would override any agreement they might make. But I think in the absence of an agreement, and payment having been in a cash-equivalent, in the US you would just need to show proof of shipping. In that case I guess the buyer eats it. I'm not aware of a US law that would require a shipper to prove that the shipment actually arrived.

Obviously because of the attempted delivery and refusal, this particular case is less clear than the simple case of a shipment that never arrives.

[mmd]

Hopefully in the very end, we can agree that the saddest thing happened is the missing Stipula.

[rubendh]

again[/U] that he change it for future sellers/transactions. I've never had a single issue even with the thousands $$ I've spent over the past 4-5 years on FP forums. Also never had any problems selling and delivering before and after meeting Ruben.

Thanks again everyone.

- I bought something from Ali Express and never got it. Probably something with the customs.
- As far as I know, I've changed my PayPal adress immediatly when I realised! (I just checked and it's updated, thanks for the heads-up though)
- In this point I'm pretty sure you're not a scammer (although you really made me believe that by saying false things) and I truely believe you that you've successfully spend a lot of money on pens and/or sold many of them.

This, however, does not solve our issue. You meight have read my proposition above (if not I suggest you to) so we can finally move on!

I

[Chrissy]

@jjm5812: You can't just "give up" trying to get the package back or the insurance pay out sorted while your buyer is out $350 and has no pen. You have a responsibility to him to send him his refund now. You've had his money for 6 months and he's had nothing.
@farmboy: It can't be fair for the seller and the buyer to split the insurance pay out as that would mean the seller gets the original $350 payment plus another $100 and the buyer gets $100.
@rubendh: It's very generous of you to offer to accept the $200 insurance payout, and suck up a loss of $150. If I was jjm5812 I would pay that into your PayPal account asap before you change your mind.