Windex to clean/flush pens?

[caleath]

When I went to Houston a few weeks ago I was able to go into Dromgooles pen shop. I noticed they were using what looked like winded to clean the nibs etc on pens. I had seen mention that folks use a water ammonia mix for pen cleaning/flushing, isn't that what windex is? I had been using it already for a few months and love it! Anyone else use it for cleaning/flushing pens?

[cwent2]

I use Windex, cause the wife doesn't have (pure) ammonia in the house - Have a small grand son in the house, so my wife won't get ammonia. Windex seems to work ok. I have also used bleach - water on a stubborn stain at the piston o ring area on a Noodler's Nib Creaper demo. Again seems to work - then flush with water.....

[KrazyIvan]

I use the non sudsy ammonia. Bottle of it for $1 USD at the dollar store. I have read that Windex has other chemicals in it that you don't want in your pen. If it is true or not, I don't know. I chose to er on the side of caution.

[piscov]

Just water ( cold or warm) and a ultrasonic bath on harder cases. The best way is ti take the nib and feed out and use water. I dont like using any chemicals products. I round brush is also useful to clean the ink windows. Just go to a gun shop and buy a barrel cleaning brush kit and you will be surprised by how useful it is...

[D Armstrong]

Please, don't. Windex has other additives, some of which are very damaging to pens, especially vintage ones.

In fact, according to this 1991 article from the Journal of the American Institute for Conservation, the use of any ammonia in water can seriously speed up the degradation of celluloid.

To be fair, plastics have come a long way since celluloid, but I personally wouldn't risk Windex on pens, either mine or my customers'.

[cwent2]

Ok, shame on me. Was thinking of the ammonia content - didn't think of the other stuff. How about bleach, is that ok?

[D Armstrong]

Heh heh. Think simple: water, or water & ammonia if it's not celluloid and is particularly gunky. And if it's really gunky, invest in a little ultrasound cleaner.

I do have a bottle of Binder's JB's Pen Flush, but honestly find that I don't have much cause to use it. But if anyone knows his chemistry and plastics, it's Richard Binder.

[cwent2]

Heh heh. Think simple: water, or water & ammonia if it's not celluloid and is particularly gunky. And if it's really gunky, invest in a little ultrasound cleaner.

I do have a bottle of Binder's JB's Pen Flush, but honestly find that I don't have much cause to use it. But if anyone knows his chemistry and plastics, it's Richard Binder.

Generally I just use water to flush out the remains of ink, but did have a pesky apache sunrise make a ring near the o rings on a demonstrator that did not want to go away, so I used "that other stuff" - probably left the ink in too long - generally I abide by the two week rule. Thanks for the information

regards

Cw

[piscov]

Bleach will does not harm celluloid and if used for brief periods will re-blacken Hard rubber, but will corrode any metal parts the pen as, special those little pins that vintage pens have to hold the turning knobs or levers... Copper and brass will be gone.

[ndw76]

Just go to a gun shop and buy a barrel cleaning brush kit and you will be surprised by how useful it is...

Such a brush can also be bought in the baby supply section of the supermarket. They are used for cleaning out the inside of straws on sipper cups. A very useful tool to have around the house. When my daughter outgrows the sipper cup the brush will go into my pen cleaning kit.

Another great cleaning tool is a used toothbrush. Or someone elses tooth brush.

[KrazyIvan]

Wondering about the brush. Will that scratch ink windows?

[caleath]

Wondering about the brush. Will that scratch ink windows?

They sell shotgun cleaning swabs that I use, they are cloth.

[tandaina]

I use nothing but straight water to clean my pens. Even ancient antiques full of dried ink. Water and time, all that it takes and all I will ever use. It's just safer.

[Vintagepens]

In fact, according to this 1991 article from the Journal of the American Institute for Conservation, the use of any ammonia in water can seriously speed up the degradation of celluloid.

I don't see any such claim in that article. Ammonia is mentioned as a deterioration byproduct, but not as a cause of deterioration, as far as I can see.

[Vintagepens]

Windex is really nasty stuff. OK on glass, but I wouldn't use it on anything made of plastic.

Bleach is also a very strong agent. It certainly shouldn't be used for routine pen care. If you do have recourse to it, it should be as an extreme measure -- and afterwards, it should be neutralized with a hydrogen peroxide solution. Water alone won't do an adequate job.

[caleath]

Windex is really nasty stuff. OK on glass, but I wouldn't use it on anything made of plastic.

Bleach is also a very strong agent. It certainly shouldn't be used for routine pen care. If you do have recourse to it, it should be as an extreme measure -- and afterwards, it should be neutralized with a hydrogen peroxide solution. Water alone won't do an adequate job.

Thanks for all the help, water alone from now on.

[D Armstrong]

In fact, according to this 1991 article from the Journal of the American Institute for Conservation, the use of any ammonia in water can seriously speed up the degradation of celluloid.

I don't see any such claim in that article. Ammonia is mentioned as a deterioration byproduct, but not as a cause of deterioration, as far as I can see.

In section 3.2.2 ("Chemical Degradation"), the article states:

Chemical breakdown of the cellulose nitrate molecule by alkalis is more rapid than that by acids—often called denitration—the following reactions show the results of alkaline degradation (after Miles 1955, 286).

Correct me if my assumptions are wrong, but if household ammonia has a pH of around 11 (and is, therefore, alkali), then it would follow that exposure to it would relatively speed up the degradation. Granted, I used license in applying the qualifier "seriously".

One thing I do wish the author had done is differentiate between earlier and later production celluloid. The product used for Vacumatics seems much more stable than Duofolds, for example, and it would be interesting to see more specific documentation. It would also be interesting to know what plastics (and from which manufacturers) were observed with nitric acid pockets or off-gassing.

[Vintagepens]

The article does state that alkaline hydrolysis damages celluloid more rapidly than acid hydrolysis, but it does not quantify either process -- nor does it single out ammonia per se (note that household ammonia is a weak base; the basicity of bleach is far greater).

Sorry to be persnickety, as I totally agree about the need to be cautious about ammonia. When I use it on celluloid, I use it sparingly, for a short time only, with a thorough water rinse afterwards. I have been warning people for years to avoid using ammonia solutions for long soaks -- and not just for plastics, since there is real concern that ammonia will embrittle nibs with less than 18K gold content.

There is indeed a big difference between earlier and later celluloids (although it should also be noted that even our "earlier" celluloids from the 1920s are actually relatively late in the history of celluloid production and fabrication), with additional stabilizers added later on as well as more sophisticated seasoning methods.

Pretty much every celluloid will give off nitric acid once it starts to deteriorate visibly. It's in the nature of the material.

[jde]

\
<snip>
Sorry to be persnickety, as I totally agree about the need to be cautious about ammonia. When I use it on celluloid, I use it sparingly, for a short time only, with a thorough water rinse afterwards. I have been warning people for years to avoid using ammonia solutions for long soaks -- and not just for plastics, since there is real concern that ammonia will embrittle nibs with less than 18K gold content.

<snip>

David, appreciate your persnickety-ness, and your detailed posts in this thread!

Not to derail this thread, but I wonder if you would or could speak to vinegar as a cleaner. Some of my friends are using some iron gall inks, and are flushing with water, followed by a vinegar flush (1 part distilled white vinegar to 9 parts water), and then water again.

I've also heard but don't know if it's true, that some of the old Parker manuals recommended a vinegar solution to clean vacumatics.

Given how some folks are very concerned about the Ph value of their inks, I was surprised to learn of the use of vinegar (an acid) as a cleaning agent. Certainly, I use a vinegar dilution for heavy duty cleaning in my shower, among other places! Perhaps in your basic modern c/c pen, no harm no foul?

I've never read any of the professional restorers suggesting vinegar, and I hope you will comment.

Thanks kindly,
Julie

P.S. Hope this thread helps some folks to make the decision not to use Windex...
I do use an occasional ammonia dilution--J.B.'s Pen Flush (never soaking a pen), and have used rapido-eze. Mostly I use water, flushing with a bulb.

[Vintagepens]

Vinegar was indeed recommended by Parker for removing ink staining from the interior of Vacumatic barrels. I'm sure it would do no harm to hard rubber, and I'd think its application as you describe would do no harm to celluloid, either.

Probably the reason vinegar isn't generally mentioned for modern pen maintenance is that it isn't especially effective at removing ink residue, at least for most inks. For iron gall inks, it might well be another story.

all best

David