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Thread: Parker that looks like a 51?

  1. #21
    Senior Member carlc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    Quote Originally Posted by carlc View Post
    Thanks Whych

    I had read that the 17, 21 and 61 were all made from injection moulded polystyrene hence my question.

    Pics would be great!
    Actually the 17 and the 61 came out after the 21.

    I wonder if they had improved their processes by then?

    It would be interesting to know what date ranges of the 21 crack (or if it's all of them).

    I believe all the models (17,21 and 61) are all prone to shrinking.

  2. #22
    Senior Member carlc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    Quote Originally Posted by whych View Post
    carlc


    I don't think Parker ever did a really cheap 'School' pen like Sheaffer did.
    I can't find an original price point for this all plastic 45 but I remembered seeing it when looking for a Senior English Duofold: http://www.writetime.co.uk/nothingover/nothingover.htm.

  3. #23
    Senior Member whych's Avatar
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    You mean the blue pen that is labelled as 'Parker 45'?
    That is actually called a duofold! (I'll try and find a box and packaging for it)

    In 62 the P45 was $5, five times more than the Sheaffer School pen. (OK, so it had a gold nib)
    I think they only brought the steel nib versions out later than that.

  4. #24
    Senior Member carlc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    Oh - Parkercollector.com also notes an all plastic school grade 45 CT - and it's labelled as a 'school' pen on the barrel inscription (he notes it was also known as the 'Arrow'). Though the pen on 'write time' doesn't have a metal ring at the end of the section.

    The price difference you note is really significant!

    Thanks Whych - this is fascinating.

  5. #25
    Senior Member ardgedee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyIvan View Post
    It looks like my Parker 21.
    It's also identical to my Parker 21, except for the cap. My 21 (and, it seems, all the 21s shown on the Parker Collector site) have metal caps with thin walls, and they look much closer to lying flush with the barrel when closed. The metal cap on my 21 is thin enough to flex slightly when squeezed hard. I wonder if the cap in the photos is from a different pen, since it looks thicker and heavier.

  6. #26
    Senior Member whych's Avatar
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    Quote Originally Posted by carlc View Post
    Oh - Parkercollector.com also notes an all plastic school grade 45 CT - and it's labelled as a 'school' pen on the barrel inscription (he notes it was also known as the 'Arrow'). Though the pen on 'write time' doesn't have a metal ring at the end of the section.

    The price difference you note is really significant!

    Thanks Whych - this is fascinating.
    The seller on write time is taking a chance. You can get a top range 45 for less than that.
    I think I paid around 5 GBP for mine, new and boxed. The guy had relisted it a couple of times.

  7. #27
    Senior Member carlc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    No offence but I wasn't intending on buying it - I don't like 45s (don't know why - it's one of those irrational things).

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    FPG Donor ♕ KrazyIvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    My 21 has the arrow clip and it says "Parker 21 Parker". The "21" is in a larger font than the Parker name. Something like this:
    PARKER 21 PARKER

    On the back side of the cap I have "Made in the USA" and the Parker arrow/elipse symbol above that.

    I had two of them but gave the other away. Both have "Parker 21" on the press bar assembly. I notice one must be newer than the other because the feed, as viewed from the back side of the nib looks different on each one. The one I think is older looks to be ebonite. It looks smaller than the one I think is newer. On the newer one, the feed looks bigger and seems to be plastic.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Laura N's Avatar
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    Quote Originally Posted by carlc View Post
    ...The Arrow clip did come in with the Super (and apparently the caps from the 51 and the 21 Super are interchangeable) but according to Richard Binder's site the final version of the 21 (1960s) also had the arrow clip....
    This is correct. I have a late version 21. Its cap (i) is the same size as a 51 cap, (ii) sports an arrow clip identical to that on the 45 and (iii) has a tassie without a jewel on top. I would say the late 21 cap incorporates design features of the 45 cap, though it's a different size. Mine does have a large "21" at the bottom of the cap, along with Made in USA, the Parker logo and the word Parker.

  10. #30
    Senior Member pajaro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    Notice that the filler mentions Superchrome ink. Probably an earlier 21. In any case, with the thick clutch ring, this is some variety of Parker 21.

  11. #31
    Senior Member whych's Avatar
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    carlc
    Not a problem - I used a P45 for a good few years, but, though a nice writer, it's not my fovourite either.

    The P21's with the Parker 21 on the cap are pretty scarce in UK. I may have the matching ballpoint for the pen.
    The earlier bar clip versions only identify the model on the filler and not the cap.
    The OP's body and nib is definitely a P21, just the cap is confusing. It could be the original cap was lost or put on a different pen and the cap he has fits and it's better to have apen with a cap than without.
    I think the P45 cap may just fit the later models, not perfectly, but it fits.
    Where are all the seasoned Parker collectors when you want them?

  12. #32
    Senior Member carlc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    Quote Originally Posted by whych View Post
    Where are all the seasoned Parker collectors when you want them?
    Hi Whych - sorry been out seeing the new Star Trek film and only just saw your reply.

    Agreed - I really want to know about the cracking issue - I've avoided 21s because of it.

    So we reckon the cap is from a 51?

    Whatever way it flies I've learnt some things and that can't be bad! I'm just glad it didn't get left at - "who cares what it is - it writes well and that's all that matters".

    carl

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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    Understand that I'm not saying I'm an "expert" here, but for what it's worth:

    The caps are not wholly interchangeable, but I think a 51 cap will fit-albeit loosely- on a 21 barrel, but not the other way around. I think the 21 that was the subject of the original post is one of those situations.

    While the original 21's had the hooded design of the 51, it was an altogether different nib and feed. The Super 21 was much closer to the 51 Special in design and construction. My understanding is that the Super 21 nib is essentially the 51 Special Octanium nib. The 51 barrel was Lucite, and, as I recall, the barrel and section/hood were machined out of a solid rod of Lucite, whereas the 21 was a molded plastic. The Super 21, in addition to having more of the characteristics of the 51 Special, also used a sturdier plastic, less prone to cracking than the earlier 21's.

    Hope this helps.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    The cap has a long arrow clip and should have a plastic jewel and is a 1948-49 "51" cap. The pen is almost certainly a 21 of the first variety. An image of the nib would confirm this.

    In my experience these tend to crack where as the 21 Super pens are quite stable. The 21 Super and the "51"Special both typically had the same Octanium nib.

    Edited to add: the 21 is made from a different polymer than is the 61.
    Last edited by Farmboy; May 10th, 2013 at 10:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    The cap has a long arrow clip and should have a plastic jewel and is a 1948-49 "51" cap. The pen is almost certainly a 21 of the first variety. An image of the nib would confirm this.

    In my experience these tend to crack where as the 21 Super pens are quite stable. The 21 Super and the "51"Special both typically had the same Octanium nib.

    Edited to add: the 21 is made from a different polymer than is the 61.
    Yay a full on Geek - what about the Parker 17?

  17. #36
    Senior Member pajaro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    Examine the clutch ring and compare that to any 21 and 51. The 51 clutch ring has a depression in the center. The 21 is raised as in the picture.

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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    You guys are awesome!

    I'll try and do a bit more research, but the consensus seems to be an early Parker 21, with perhaps be odd sized cap. The nib sticks out ate a bit more than my '51, and it does have a hairline crack in the barrel. But it doesn't say "Parker 21" anywhere I can fine. I haven't taken apart the nib assembly, however.

    Todd

  19. #38
    Senior Member ardgedee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    Quote Originally Posted by ToddPeperkorn View Post
    I'll try and do a bit more research, but the consensus seems to be an early Parker 21, with perhaps be odd sized cap. The nib sticks out ate a bit more than my '51, and it does have a hairline crack in the barrel. But it doesn't say "Parker 21" anywhere I can fine.
    Is it possible the cap and the bladder guard are both cannibalized from other pens?

  20. #39
    Senior Member pajaro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    Quote Originally Posted by carlc View Post
    No offence but I wasn't intending on buying it - I don't like 45s (don't know why - it's one of those irrational things).
    I am with you. I don't care for 45s, even though they have that great funky design spirit of the 1960s, they feel cheap. I have one to admire its style, but don't write with it.

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    Default Re: Parker that looks like a 51?

    Quote Originally Posted by pajaro View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by carlc View Post
    No offence but I wasn't intending on buying it - I don't like 45s (don't know why - it's one of those irrational things).
    I am with you. I don't care for 45s, even though they have that great funky design spirit of the 1960s, they feel cheap. I have one to admire its style, but don't write with it.
    I realize this thread started with a question about a Parker 21 with a Parker 51 cap (I think that was the consensus view here); so I apologize if I'm hijacking this into another direction. However, a few thoughts about the lowly 45:

    I have mixed feelings about the 45.

    On one hand, it was a great concept and execution. My understanding is that Parker "acquired" the general form of the cartridge pen when they purchased Eversharp in the late 1950's, but (and corrections are welcome here) the converter was something Parker came up with before the pen actually hit the market in 1960.

    The 45 was a hit from the get-go, and deservedly so. Although the pen was introduced as a lower-priced model for the "school market", the basic cartridge/converter concept over time found its way to the upper end of the Parker line such that it eventually became the standard. At the same time, realizing what they had in an era when the fountain pen market in the US was pretty much collapsing around them, Parker shrewdly developed a lot of higher end "skins" in order to move the 45 into the middle/upper middle offerings while still maintaining the 45 as the entry level Parker fp (at least until the Jotter and Vector fp's filled that space). In short, I would argue that the 45 helped keep Parker "alive" as a fountain pen manufacturer in a critical period for the company.

    Much like Pajaro noted, the basic plastic barrel/stainless cap versions of the 45 can feel cheap in the hand. However, a vintage 45 Flighter fp is a well made, nicely balanced pen (the 45 Flighter bp is about as perfect as a ballpoint pen can get, but that's another topic). My "issue" with the 45 is what I find to be an indifferent nib. Some have been pretty good, but often I find them to be somewhat scratchy and difficult to "tame". I've got a couple of 45 fp's, but it's the nib that keeps them from being a regular user.

    When looking at the 45, I think it's important to remember that the pen was not intended for the upper-end market; even though it might have ended up knocking at that door. If you look at it for what it was meant to do, it did that and more.

    Again, sorry for taking this off topic.
    Last edited by nxn96; May 14th, 2013 at 10:00 AM.

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