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Thread: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

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    Default Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    I'm no artist. Never have been. I do like to play around occasionally though. However, I haven't really tried to do anything other than dismal illustrations to try and get conversational points across, or just thinking on the page to process ideas, for many, many years. Some of the artwork that gets uploaded here, has got me interested in having a bit of a play around and seeing if I might enjoy it.

    My issue is that when I'm sketching something, I spend at least as much time erasing as drawing. I look at what I'm trying to sketch, look at the page, put in a few lines, and look back at the object. I'll then see the angles, lines, lengths and spacings are way off, sketch in the new, erase the old, and view again. All my sketches progress on this basis. They always have. I simply can't see the image one the page until I put one there, and then adjust, tweak, shift and generally faff around until there is a vague resemblance of the subject. By the time I've got some passable outlining and general shape laid in, the page only has about 20%-25% left of all the lines I've thrown at it trying to get some semblance of form.

    If I tried sketching with ink only, it would be horrendous. No, I'm not just saying that. It would be very bad, and every sheet would be torn off and screwed up before the number of lines/shapes reached double figures. Pencil first, followed by ink would be my only hope of what I would consider a fair sketch to my own very poor standards. Maybe it's just lack of practice and being rusty in both eye and hand, but attempting ink first right now would be a complete waste of ink, paper, time and sanity.

    My questions, are about how to do this when starting with pencil. Will the graphite inhibit the ink, or will the ink inhibit erasing the pencil lines? Should I partially erase it first? Do different leads make a difference? Does different paper need a different approach? Has anyone got any pointers to nudge me in the right direction to minimise wasted time and materials?

    I'd be using a sketch pad to start with, possibly a watercolour pad later. Inks will predominantly be Diamine.

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    I'd start with the smoothest paper you can find. I like the moleskine sketchbook, and my current seawhite of Brighton is nice too. The best I've fouefor adding pen and water to though is my life drawing pad, can't recaothe nanoright now but will check it when I get to the office. None of these lay completely flat though becaii prefer bound books where I can draw across the gutter. Spiral sketchbooks will allow you to lay it flat. My husband likes his pink pig square sketchbook.

    Essentially you need it thick enough to take water but smooth so your fountain pen is happy. I tried thicker texture paper once (not even as textured as watercolour paper) and it kept catching the paper fibers in the nib. Also smooth paper will help you erase your pencil easier.

    Normal hb pencil should be fine, my husband likes b or 2b though. The trick is to press very lightly with the pencil so you easily rub out later. You need a decent rubber that won't leave an oily patch on the paper. Your ink needs to be 100% dry before you rub out but other than that it should quite easy.

    I don't often use pencil first myself,but like you I don't get the lines right either, I just encorporate the scribbles into my 'style' so it's less obvious. I don't have the time or patience for pencithen pen and I have a high tolerance for when it goes wrong, I have faith ill get better next time Alternatively you can use an ink like mi17 where the lines can be washed into a coloured wash when they're wrong!

    Good luck, I look forward to seeing some of your work here, don't worry if it's rubbish to start with you'll definitely get better with practice. I might be quite decent in about ten years myself

    Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    Thanks, Suzy. Sounds like a highly diluted wash with a fine brush would be a better approach on the watercolour pad then. I already have the pad I'll be starting with, as I got some watercolours to try out too. Just haven't had the time to try them out yet.

    Also, I already have a little A6 sketchpad to start playing around with. It's nice and pocketable, and while it doesn't lie flat, it can comfortably be held in hand when out and about. It seems to work surprisingly well with fountain pens too.

    For pencils, I've got a wooden sketch pencil set, running from B to 6B, plus 0.9 leads for a mechanical pencil when out and about, so no issues there. As to erasers, I only use Mars Staedtler plastic erasers, so I don't expect any problems there either. I'll try to have a play around with MI#18 when I get the pens inked up with it.

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    For what it's worth, I am a huge fan of white plastic erasers and specifically the Pentel Clic-Eraser as well as the Staedler Mars. I feel they remove more graphite from the page.

    I always have to draw with pencil first. I plan to use an old 2H Empire Pedigree that's gone disused for ages as I tend to go way too heavy on HB.

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    Don't erase. Leave all your lines in.

    You might not want to, you might shrink from that, but look at professional drawings and sketches. I mean Rembrandt on down; they leave their tentative lines in. Then they reinforce the lines they want to remain with darker ink, pencil, or whatever the medium.

    If you treat the sketch AS a sketch rather than a finished work (and these lines sometimes even appear in framed finished drawings), this no-erase approach will help you improve in the long run.

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    Good call. Yes, they'll just be sketches, I was thinking the pencil lines might spoil it, but I take your point.

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    For what it's worth, I am a huge fan of white plastic erasers and specifically the Pentel Clic-Eraser as well as the Staedler Mars. I feel they remove more graphite from the page.

    I always have to draw with pencil first. I plan to use an old 2H Empire Pedigree that's gone disused for ages as I tend to go way too heavy on HB.
    I find that if I don't use a soft enough pencil, I end up using pressure and leaving indentations on the page. The bolder pencil strokes also give me a better appreciation for where I'm at - failing eyes and all that

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuddus View Post
    Good call. Yes, they'll just be sketches, I was thinking the pencil lines might spoil it, but I take your point.
    Wish I could find you some more examples, but RGperedo, an accomplished artist, leaves some lines on the page:

    Right in the same forum.

    Unfortunately, many of the earlier sketches appear as one of those blue question marks, but from about page 4, you can still see some.
    Last edited by Sailor Kenshin; May 25th, 2018 at 11:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    That the sketching take more time than the final line art is normal (at least for me).

    I also Sketch first with a pencil and only afterwards with the ink.

    I normally won’t do it like Susi, as I change too much, but this is a valid approach especially if your skills advances.
    She is right that one (or couple) wrong lines normally would not spoil your whole drawing (especially when you draw loose with many lines), especially if you did the line finding very gentle and with no continuous lines.

    In general there is no right or wrong, you have to find your way which works for you.
    What helped me, and what I still do is watching a lot of drawing videos on YouTube, to see different techniques and how others draw.

    It also depend on the drawing style, if you have a lot loose lines with hatching and cross hatching your attempts to find the correct lines will often not matter, on the other side if you draw with only few confident dedicated outlines every stroke counts.

    Select a ink which does not smear or smudge when erasing your pencil sketch
    In opposite to Kenshin I always erase my pencil sketch after I did the ink line work.
    For me not erasing it seems to be sloppy, I do not like it in my drawings and also in others.
    But this is again a style thing.

    Softer pencils will make it harder to erase them, I make my pencil sketches very gentle that I can remove them without a trace.

    The roughness of the paper is again a style question, first I preferred smooth paper as Suzy, but over time I valued also paper with more texture.

    Whenever water is involved then a simple rule values: as thicker the better it is.

    I would recommend for notebooks at least 120g/m2, this is fine for dry techniques and (depending on the paper) is also ok for light washes.
    I can recommend the Stathmore 400 toned Notebooks (spiral bound) this is an awesome smooth and well behaving drawing paper which can take a lot of abuse (water and a lot of ink, even if it is only 118g/m2).

    When you plan to use a lot of water paper with more than 200 g/m2 or even heavier watercolor paper is great.

    I can recommend Clairefontaine Paint On Multi techniques paper with 250g/m2 which is a awesome paper no matter what you use (dry or wet).

    As Wuddus I also use Staedtler Mars Plastic erasers, for me so far the best erasers I’ve ever used.
    The black one is a bit softer than the white one.

    Some inks can suffer a little bit when you erase heavily on it.
    Especially evident when you are doing your lineart with fineliner pens.
    These are all prone to get a dull mate grey touch when erase on them.

    Many FP inks are fine and will not smudge or get dull when erasing on them.

    But the highest line quality in my experience can be achieved with India ink and dip pens, blackest black and 100% water and eraser proof.

    Here I can recommend the Rohrer & Klingner Zeichentusche and Ausziehtusche (with and without Shellak), absolutely top notch stuff, but as said only feasible for dip nibs.

    Iˋm looking foreword to see a lot of your work.
    Last edited by Pterodactylus; May 25th, 2018 at 12:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    check out non-photo blue pencil, you may find it useful.

    I love Sailor Kenshin's advice to leave the botched lines in. Seems like solid advice on improving your drawings quickly.

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    Quote Originally Posted by manoeuver View Post
    check out non-photo blue pencil, you may find it useful.

    I love Sailor Kenshin's advice to leave the botched lines in. Seems like solid advice on improving your drawings quickly.
    I also have and use colored ones, but they are not as easy to erase than graphite pencil lines.
    They have the advantage that you can easily remove them (blue as well as red, or other colors) when you scan your sketches in to proceed digital (e.g. to color your lineart digitally).

    Btw. the name “non-photo blue” is a relict as these days the color does not matter anymore ,as long as it is different from black (all can be removed easily digital)
    Last edited by Pterodactylus; May 25th, 2018 at 11:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Kenshin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuddus View Post
    Good call. Yes, they'll just be sketches, I was thinking the pencil lines might spoil it, but I take your point.
    Wish I could find you some more examples, but RGperedo, an accomplished artist, leaves some lines on the page:

    Right in the same forum.

    Unfortunately, many of the earlier sketches appear as one of those blue question marks, but from about page 4, you can still see some.
    I did actually view that thread before starting this one. Very impressive! Yes, there are some construction lines left visible occasionally, but when your art is that good, you can get away with anything I don't expect to be producing anything even 1/4 of that standard.

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Kenshin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuddus View Post
    Good call. Yes, they'll just be sketches, I was thinking the pencil lines might spoil it, but I take your point.
    Wish I could find you some more examples, but RGperedo, an accomplished artist, leaves some lines on the page:

    Right in the same forum.

    Unfortunately, many of the earlier sketches appear as one of those blue question marks, but from about page 4, you can still see some.
    Have a look at my husbands instagram, he occasionally leaves his pencil guidelines in:
    https://www.instagram.com/walkertoye/

    Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    Ptero,

    Thank you for such a full reply. The sketchpad paper I have is 150gsm and fairly smooth as far as sketch pads go. I may try a little brush and ink work, but don't expect to use much water other than a damp brush to smear or pull colour slightly. I'll save the washes and wetter work for the watercolour paper.

    If I produce anything half decent I'll be happy to share it, and the rest I'll put down to experience.

    Point taken on the grey smear from bold pencil. What my initial thoughts were, was to add ink and remove graphite when the basic outline shapes were in place, then that will act as a guide to give me the confidence to move straight to detailing with the pen. Again, I'm only really doing it to amuse myself, I have no delusions of skill or style

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    Quote Originally Posted by suzy01 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Kenshin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuddus View Post
    Good call. Yes, they'll just be sketches, I was thinking the pencil lines might spoil it, but I take your point.
    Wish I could find you some more examples, but RGperedo, an accomplished artist, leaves some lines on the page:

    Right in the same forum.

    Unfortunately, many of the earlier sketches appear as one of those blue question marks, but from about page 4, you can still see some.
    Have a look at my husbands instagram, he occasionally leaves his pencil guidelines in:
    https://www.instagram.com/walkertoye/

    Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
    Again, superb work. With skill levels like that, you can afford to leave in some evidence of how you got there. At my level, it would be more a case of "which out of place lines should I be looking at?"

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuddus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by suzy01 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Kenshin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuddus View Post
    Good call. Yes, they'll just be sketches, I was thinking the pencil lines might spoil it, but I take your point.
    Wish I could find you some more examples, but RGperedo, an accomplished artist, leaves some lines on the page:

    Right in the same forum.

    Unfortunately, many of the earlier sketches appear as one of those blue question marks, but from about page 4, you can still see some.
    Have a look at my husbands instagram, he occasionally leaves his pencil guidelines in:
    https://www.instagram.com/walkertoye/

    Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
    Again, superb work. With skill levels like that, you can afford to leave in some evidence of how you got there. At my level, it would be more a case of "which out of place lines should I be looking at?"
    My husband has just said, "the secret is to balance pencil guidelines with how confident you are venturing outside them to fill in detail. Super confident sketchers might just do perspective lines. I do outlines paying special attention to what's in front of what else."

    He also said it's less fun pencil drawing the entire piece.

    Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    Quote Originally Posted by suzy01 View Post
    My husband has just said, "the secret is to balance pencil guidelines with how confident you are venturing outside them to fill in detail. Super confident sketchers might just do perspective lines. I do outlines paying special attention to what's in front of what else."

    He also said it's less fun pencil drawing the entire piece.

    Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
    At this stage, I still have to relearn what I should be seeing in the subject, such as component shapes within the whole, and developing some basic ability. I can understand going without pencil being more fun as you advance, but I'm a long long way off that.

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    I used to do a lot of drawing years ago, and have recently started getting back into it. My drawing has always been similar to my photography in that I have to do 20 or 30 or more drawings or photos to get a good one, on average. My wife tells me I'm too critical of my work, but I think any objective observer would agree that every now and then one piece will stand out from the others. Anyway, I experiment around with a lot of different approaches. I used to use Rapidograph pens for pen and ink drawings (the old ones with the bakelite bodies), and sometimes I would lightly sketch in pencil first and then go over it in ink, and sometimes, especially once I started feeling more confident, I'd do everything ink. When I started in pencil I usually removed the pencil lines with a kneaded eraser afterwards — once the ink had dried! A few times I didn't wait long enough, and smeared the ink, ruining the drawing. I found that when I did everything in ink, if the drawing didn't work it would fail spectacularly, but when it did it work, it was usually pretty special. Again, the ratio of failure to success was somewhere around 25 to 1.

    One cheat that I used occasionally was to do the initial drawing in pencil, erasing and replacing lines as necessary and sometimes leaving a bit of a mess on the paper — smudges, indentations from pressing too hard, etc. — and then put the pencil drawing on a light box and tape my fine toothed paper over it and do the ink. Light boxes are harder to find than they used to be, but they make inexpensive ones for children that are pretty easy to find, although they don't call them light boxes, they call them magic drawing boxes or something goofy like that. You can also make your own by placing a light below a sheet of glass or plastic and shining it up through the transparent/translucent substance.

    I'm now using a fine nibbed fountain pen for drawing. I saw on another thread on this forum an example of a very cool technique. Heres a link to it: https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread...y-Ink-17/page4. It's the post by suzy01 near the middle of the page. She first did a drawing in pen and ink, then went over it here and there lightly with a water brush (Japanese invention, hollow handle holds water) and the cross-hatching blended together and made a nice gradient. Changes the character of the piece completely. Very nice effect. I'm ordering some Pentel water brushes and will be playing with that technique.
    Last edited by calamus; May 25th, 2018 at 01:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    I'm my own worst critic too I also expect a fairly high failure rate, but that's all part of the learning curve. I used to feel great if I got five good pics off a 36 exposure film. As to artwork, my standard will be lower.

    I want to try and get away from tracing, as I don't think I'd get any progress that way. Besides which, a lightbox wouldn't really be practical with the hardback sketchbook I'm using. I've had a go at a couple of pencil sketches in It, just to remind myself how humbly I'm starting I'm surprised I haven't erased my way through to the next page yet Eventually it did start vaguely resembling what I was trying to achieve...

    Yes, I'd spotted Suzy's trick with the water brush, but I'm going to try it with just a damp brush. I'm not going to start spending money on anything else, just for it to be thrown into the corner of the room in a frustrated sulk. I'm just dipping my toe in the water with all this stuff. I don't know if I'll have the patience, eyesight, dexterity/coordination anymore. I wasn't much good years ago, so I doubt i'll have improved in the fallow decades I'm not even that interested in other folks seeing it, just something that I can think is half decent - for me! In years past, I have fluked the odd half decent work, and if I can fluke a few more I'll be happy

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    Default Re: Sketching: Pencil then ink?

    I am also not a trained artist. But I love sketching.

    I had always sketches with pencil since I was young, but was never truly happy with the results. But discovering fountain pens has put a boost in my enthusiasm and satisfaction in my sketches. Not that my sketches are anything compared to those from real artists, but it does bring me joy and it's quite effective as a stress-reliever.

    Now I don't use pencil anymore (only need it for drawing extra challenging subjects, like people

    Why fountain pen? Because it feels precise (unlike ballpoint) and because I can't erase my mistakes. Sometimes I can cover-up my mistakes, sometimes the mistake became a "happy-accident" but most of the time, the mistake just sit there, glaring at me, forcing me not only to acknowledge it, but also to finally see what's wrong and what not to do next time.

    I would suggest to read some sketching textbooks to familiarize yourself with what makes sketches work. Things like value contrast, different hatching techniques, composition. It takes a lot of practice and failure to internalize these concepts. But everyone knows that already

    After sketching with fountain pens for a while, now I can pretty much sketch with any nib sizes, the bigger the nib size, the larger my sketches need to be, and different size sketches derives different satisfaction, as I found out.

    One last thought, don't draw things that you don't like. Pick a subject that you love, be it natural, still-life, people (very difficult to pull of especially when we just get started).
    Last edited by penwash; May 25th, 2018 at 03:28 PM.
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