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Thread: Urushi

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    Default Urushi

    Time for another daft question from someone who has learning difficulties.


    Urushi lacquer: is there a hierarchy with regard to the cost-quality equation?

    So far in my searching I have not found many sources of such artefacts. My list goes like this for the moment:

    • Nakaya
    • Ohasido
    • Hakumin
    • Namiki
    • Dani Trio
    • Manu propria
    • Sailor
    • Edison Pens
    • Carolina Pen Company
    • Newton Pens


    Prices range quite widely across all of these makers - I'm excluding maki-e pens from this consideration.

    In the opinions of those who are fortunate to own pens from any, some or all of these makers, what are the things to look out for? Where is the best bang for the buck? And does the nib really make or break the pen?


    I have often toyed with the idea of something in urushi. Some guidance would be appreciated.

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    Default Re: Urushi

    I think there are three components to the "question" of urushi pens, and you mention two. The first is the urushi itself. I think that if you're going to bother with it, you should get the genuine article - i.e.: from Japanese artisans. I think most fall in this category, but there are a few European makers that do it themselves. Buying Japanese helps maintain the art.

    Next (as you mention) is the nib. Frankly, there's nothing special about a Nakaya nib as compared to a Platinum nib. The only difference is the stamp, and they're in fact interchangeable. The same goes for Namiki/Pilot, the only difference between my Namiki Falcon and Pilot Falcon is the color of the trim and the labeling. Point being to look at a maker that uses nibs you like. Like Sailor or Bock? Pick a pen with one of those nibs.

    The last point is the pen itself. There's something to be said for the craftsmanship that goes into a hand turned pen. Nothing against automation, but there's an aesthetic value in a Nakaya, for example, that has been hand made with a foot powered lathe. This also gets to helping maintain the craft. If they don't sell them, they don't make them and the tradition gets lost.

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    Default Re: Urushi

    Things that will effect costs.

    The source of the urushi. Most comes from Southeast Asia; China, Taiwan, Japan. Generally Japanese urushi is the more expensive.

    How it is cured. Generally air cured over longer periods will be more expensive.

    How many layers of urushi. More layers will generally be more expensive.

    How the cured layer is treated before the next layer is applied. Generally hand finishing between layers will be more expensive.

    Colors. Colors can be made by adding natural products or man made dyes. Generally the former will be more expensive.

    The reputation of the artist. Many of the traditional makers are known and honored and items they produce and sign will generally be more expensive.

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    Default Re: Urushi

    Only my opinion and only valid for me.

    I see the work needed to produce this lacquer and that it is an art to create the coating, and even I value nice tools for me the most important part of the pen is the nib, the nib makes the pen special.
    Many of these pens have not a nib which make them special, even worth, many are simple cartridge/converter pens.
    For me a cartridge filling system is an attribute of cheap pens, which I do not want to see in a pen which costs more than about 70€.

    Sorry, but for me I could not justify to pay that much money for a simple cartridge pen with a standard of the shelf nib..... not for a simple lacquer coating of the tool, even it has a special “deep” shiny look.

    And personally I can’t see the beauty in a plain brownish-reddish lacquer coating many have.

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    Default Re: Urushi

    As far as I know, Newton doesn't do urushi, he sends his pens to Jonathon Brooks of Carolina Pen Co to do urushi work.

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    Default Re: Urushi

    The only thing that comes close to genuine Japanese urushi is Manu Propria. He is very knowledgeable, and his work is interesting, but I would still pace it a rung below the original Japanese.

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    Default Re: Urushi

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Where is the best bang for the buck?
    Wasn't this Wancher's pitch? Something about dealing direct with the artisans?

    (Not an urushi afficionado or connoisseur, didn't order the Dream Pen, have handled maybe two urushi pens ever (at the Pelikan Hub last year), neither of which appealed — so writing from utter ignorance here. Just another maker to consider, maybe.)

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    Default Re: Urushi

    Quote Originally Posted by catbert View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Where is the best bang for the buck?
    Wasn't this Wancher's pitch? Something about dealing direct with the artisans?

    (Not an urushi afficionado or connoisseur, didn't order the Dream Pen, have handled maybe two urushi pens ever (at the Pelikan Hub last year), neither of which appealed — so writing from utter ignorance here. Just another maker to consider, maybe.)
    Nothing have indicate that quality yet. I'm still skeptical about the quality of the Urushi. The nib will probably be good as they are from JoWo.

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    Default Re: Urushi

    Just a follow up question on this thread.


    Why is urushi considered a luxury coating for a fountain pen when it is just a standard coating for kitchenware? Marketing?

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    Default Re: Urushi

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Time for another daft question from someone who has learning difficulties.


    Urushi lacquer: is there a hierarchy with regard to the cost-quality equation?

    So far in my searching I have not found many sources of such artefacts. My list goes like this for the moment:

    • Nakaya
    • Ohasido
    • Hakumin
    • Namiki
    • Dani Trio
    • Manu propria
    • Sailor
    • Edison Pens
    • Carolina Pen Company
    • Newton Pens


    Prices range quite widely across all of these makers - I'm excluding maki-e pens from this consideration.

    In the opinions of those who are fortunate to own pens from any, some or all of these makers, what are the things to look out for? Where is the best bang for the buck? And does the nib really make or break the pen?


    I have often toyed with the idea of something in urushi. Some guidance would be appreciated.
    AP Limited Editions have Urushi pens. Their entry level pen the Apprentice is nice but expensive. Not sure who makes the nib.

    There is an artist called Bokumondoh on Instagram who carries out Urushi customisations on pens.

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    Default Re: Urushi

    Quote Originally Posted by Pterodactylus View Post
    For me a cartridge filling system is an attribute of cheap pens, which I do not want to see in a pen which costs more than about 70€..
    Which makes no sense at all - piston fillers are cheap to engineer (look at Indian made Dollar pens) and CC's offer a lot of advantages of their own.

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    Default Re: Urushi

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    And does the nib really make or break the pen?
    Perhaps you actually mean to ask if nibs from the makers you named vary significantly? Because the answer to the literal question is yes, obvious - if a nib is bad, obviously it will break the pen unless you can get it replaced. If you're spending real money, I'd nail down what type of writing experience you want and choose the nib that will give it.

    (Although I think Nakaya will adjust nibs over quite a wide range ?)

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    Default Re: Urushi

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    J
    Why is urushi considered a luxury coating for a fountain pen when it is just a standard coating for kitchenware? Marketing?
    I thought actual urushi kitchenware, as opposed to synthetically coated lookalikes, was rather expensive? As in $200 for a bento box, very often. (The synthetics are also much easier to maintain - you probably wouldn't want to use real urushi for everyday use unless you're a hyper-aesthete.)
    Last edited by ilikenails; January 21st, 2019 at 08:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Urushi

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Time for another daft question from someone who has learning difficulties.


    Urushi lacquer: is there a hierarchy with regard to the cost-quality equation?

    So far in my searching I have not found many sources of such artefacts. My list goes like this for the moment:

    • Nakaya
    • Ohasido
    • Hakumin
    • Namiki
    • Dani Trio
    • Manu propria
    • Sailor
    • Edison Pens
    • Carolina Pen Company
    • Newton Pens


    Prices range quite widely across all of these makers - I'm excluding maki-e pens from this consideration.

    In the opinions of those who are fortunate to own pens from any, some or all of these makers, what are the things to look out for? Where is the best bang for the buck? And does the nib really make or break the pen?


    I have often toyed with the idea of something in urushi. Some guidance would be appreciated.

    It all depends on YOU. Purchasing an Urushi lacquer pen is akin to purchasing an art work, something that has been worked on and created by an artisan. It is up to your taste. If you are only thinking of collecting one for investment then look at resale values of the various makers Urshi pens. If you are looking at owning one primarily for yourself then you look at the shape, the colors and if you personally like the work done by that maker. Remember it is subjective unless you are worrying about investment and in that case research on your part would be important. No matter what, it is a time-consuming ancient craft that is being kept alive by dedicated craftsmen.

    Communicate with various makers and dealers and slowly make the decision. Just keep looking at the variations and what gives you pleasure while making this decision. Think about whether it important to You if it is made in Japan or not, what colors you like, different variations and makers talents. Look at all the various Urushi artisans work and contemplate it over time as you may change your mind or all of a sudden really like some variation that you had over looked at first.

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    Default Re: Urushi

    Quote Originally Posted by ilikenails View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pterodactylus View Post
    For me a cartridge filling system is an attribute of cheap pens, which I do not want to see in a pen which costs more than about 70€..
    Which makes no sense at all - piston fillers are cheap to engineer (look at Indian made Dollar pens) and CC's offer a lot of advantages of their own.
    I obviously do not agree with you.
    Piston fillers are fare more complex than simple CC pens.
    Almost all cheap pens are simple CC pens.

    Look e.g. at the famous telescopic pistons of the 50s Montblanc, they were top notch, German Engineering at its best.

    When Pelikan invented the piston filler in the 1920s this was the last real major innovation for me in the FP history.
    The cartridge and later the simple converter (which is basically also a stripped down piston filler concept) were answers to the ballpoint, dropping the costs, simplify the pen, make the ink change faster and easier for the crowd (and earn more money for the ink and bind the customers to their own cartridge type/ink).

    I do not count some some cheap 3rd world pens, but before TWSBI lowered the entry for quality piston fillers for me the Pelikan M200 were the classical piston entry pen.
    For me there is a obvious reason why higher end pens of the big players are usually piston fillers.
    You might not agree to it, but I can life with it

    For me exclusive expensive high quality pens are bound to the piston filler concept.

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    Default Re: Urushi

    Quote Originally Posted by ilikenails View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    And does the nib really make or break the pen?
    Perhaps you actually mean to ask if nibs from the makers you named vary significantly? Because the answer to the literal question is yes, obvious - if a nib is bad, obviously it will break the pen unless you can get it replaced. If you're spending real money, I'd nail down what type of writing experience you want and choose the nib that will give it.

    (Although I think Nakaya will adjust nibs over quite a wide range ?)
    I was thinking of Nakaya because they use the nib from the Platinum 3776 in what is supposed to be an artisinal pen. Personally, if Nakaya actually made and fitted nibs more appropriate to their pen bodies I would be more inclined to consider purchasing one. Their current nib offerings do not excite me.

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    Default Re: Urushi

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post

    I was thinking of Nakaya because they use the nib from the Platinum 3776 in what is supposed to be an artisinal pen. Personally, if Nakaya actually made and fitted nibs more appropriate to their pen bodies I would be more inclined to consider purchasing one. Their current nib offerings do not excite me.
    So what would be an appropriate nib for an artisanal pen? The standard Jowo/Bock that 99% of bespoke pens come with?

    A quality nib is a quality nib, and the 3776’s nib is a quality nib.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Urushi

    Well, a nib that proportionally complemented the pen would be a good start. I don't think the 3776 is the right size for many of the designs. Obviously this is a matter of personal taste, so there's no point ragging on me about it.

    So what would be an appropriate nib for an artisanal pen? The standard Jowo/Bock that 99% of bespoke pens come with?
    That's funny given the other thread about custom pens.

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    Default Re: Urushi

    For me the nib is the heart and the soul of the pen, the most important part, second important the feed, the rest is much less important, nice or not so nice looking accessory.

    So imho the overall pen lives and die with the nib/feed, a pen with a standard nib unit will never be much better or worse than another pen with that unit (of course handling, size, balance,... will contribute, but the fundament puts the pen into a ballpark).

    So if we are talking about handmade artisan expensive pens imo there should also be a special nib/feed in it, nothing from the shelf (at least hand tuned with a special awesome grind).

    But my view is performance/usage driven, not focused on the aesthetics of the Staffage.

    I can understand that somebody with a different focus might see it different.
    Last edited by Pterodactylus; January 24th, 2019 at 12:11 AM.

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