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Thread: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

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    Senior Member ardgedee's Avatar
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    Question Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    I was reading Richard Binder's site over the weekend, and at the bottom of his page about pen flex, he noted:
    It’s important to realize that no modern manufacturer produces flexible nibs like the great old superflexible “wet noodle” nibs from the likes of Waterman and Mabie Todd.
    Why is this? Do current pen manufacturers see no market for them? Judging from how desirable vintage pens with the flexiest nibs seem to be, there must be some interest in a modern-day version.

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    Yup, absolutely no market and far to high a liability. No major manufacturer could afford to make even semi-flexible nibs much less wet noodles.

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    I think that is right on. I remember seeing somewhere that most manufactures no longer have tooling or formulas to produce the old flex nibs. The startup costs in getting them back into production are likely too high at this point for most manufacturers to justify their production. It's easier for them to just offer a standard 14K or 18K nib with some spring and then focus on the next pen design or marketing.

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    Senior Member manoeuver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    An explanation I heard is that the flexy nibs of old were cast. Modern nibs are stamped.

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    Quote Originally Posted by manoeuver View Post
    An explanation I heard is that the flexy nibs of old were cast. Modern nibs are stamped.
    That's very surprising, since cast parts tend to be more rigid and brittle.

    Modern nibs are stamped from rolled sheets that are stress relieved.

    But is it not simply explained by the change in writing style when ballpoints became common? That seems to be when flex nibs died out.

    Also, what is the real demand now? A few thousand a year, worldwide? Which big manufacturer would bother to tool up for that? (I'm guessing this is why we don't see new button or lever fillers being made either.)

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    Quote Originally Posted by ardgedee View Post
    I was reading Richard Binder's site over the weekend, and at the bottom of his page about pen flex, he noted:
    It’s important to realize that no modern manufacturer produces flexible nibs like the great old superflexible “wet noodle” nibs from the likes of Waterman and Mabie Todd.
    Why is this? Do current pen manufacturers see no market for them? Judging from how desirable vintage pens with the flexiest nibs seem to be, there must be some interest in a modern-day version.
    Ah! Thank you for asking this! I've been wondering this for awhile. I love my wet noodle nibs and because I have this need to um... hoard things that are no longer made, I'm always wanting more... it would be so much easier if someone would make more! I guess it makes sense, the demand just isn't there. I suppose the price of gold wouldn't help either (though I imagine that factors into the price of vintage wet noodles..). Either way, it would be nice if there were a modern manufacturer.

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    Mauricio at Vintagepen.net has some information about it which I think is fascinating and makes a lot of sense:

    Highly skilled nib makers performed up to 70 operations to manufacture a flexible nib in gold, many of which were manual operations, becoming an extremely labor intensive process. One of these operations was gold forging, a metallurgical process to temper the gold nib. Tight quality control measures were also in place. Finished nibs were assembled to fountain pens and employees (tuners) tested, examined, and carefully adjusted, set, and smoothed the iridium prior to those pens being shipped to the marketplace. Lots of skillful handwork and craftmanship took place to attain the high caliber of a performance writing nib.

    Nowadays, with skyrocketing gold prices, the cost of the nib is many times the single component with the highest cost ingredient when manufacturing a fountain pen. Add lower demand for fountain pens compared to the early 20th century, higher salaries in most industrialized countries, cost cutting, the fact that most companies that used to make flexible nibs have either closed or are under different ownership, the fact there are less companies making nibs, lots of writers not knowing how to properly hold a pen and even less of them knowing how to use a flexible nib ... all these and other factors have changed the approach to make flexible nibs. Modern nib making does not include forging. Gold rolling is a great metallurgical process, but it does not achieve the same high levels of elasticity, flexibility and responsiveness found in forged nibs. Rolled gold Vs. forged gold is the main contributor for the tremendous difference between the performance of vintage and modern flexible nibs. Furthermore, there is less personal inspection and tuning in modern nibs. Machines are incapable of performing all the necessary writing tests in a flexible nib. They are not able to feel how these nibs perform and cannot conduct the necessary micro adjustments.
    I'm not affiliated with Mauricio/VintagePen.net, I just buy my wet noodles from him and they're fabulous

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    Quote Originally Posted by GourmetPens View Post
    Mauricio at Vintagepen.net has some information about it which I think is fascinating and makes a lot of sense:

    ....One of these operations was gold forging, a metallurgical process to temper the gold nib.
    I'm not affiliated with Mauricio/VintagePen.net, I just buy my wet noodles from him and they're fabulous
    While a lot of the rest of what he says is correct, or quite plausible, the bit I left in is just nonsensical.

    Forging is not a metallurgical process, it is an engineering process. It does not change the composition of the metal, although it may alter the crystal structure. And tempering is a separate process, not part of forging. One can temper metal that has been cast, wrought, forged, or rolled. Or forge it and not temper it at all. Annealing would probably be important for a flexible nib to make it less brittle by relieving any residual stresses.

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    Ah, well, I know nothing about that all that stuff lol. But most of what he said makes sense, at least to me. I just ignored the bits that I couldn't figure out haha.

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    Thanks Azizah. What Mauricio says makes an awful lot of sense (despite some minor technical inaccuracies that don't alter the thrust of what he says).
    It's a shame they aren't made; but I'd hate to think what the cost would be, if they were.
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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    It seems to me that the new Wahl-Eversharp nibs are rather flexible. The ones yet to be released (ceramic) may be even more so.

    There may be a resurgence after all should these pens sell in large enough quantities.

    Someone with solid connections to TWSBI should get Speedy to comment on this question.

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    You see a sharp decrease in flex nib production decades before the advent of the ballpoint, a major cause being the widespread adoption of carbon paper.
    I would also suspect that most business writing called for a pen with limited flex, as speed and legibility would have been seen as paramount. In any event, American pens of the '30s and '40s tend to have much less flexibility than their counterparts from the 'teens and before.

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    I don't know if it hasn't dawned on anyone, or they are just keeping it to themselves, but the fact of the matter is that people don't write like that anymore.

    In fact, handwriting, especially cursive, is yet another dying thing. There will always be enthusiasts and specialists, people with pens and inks acting like the writing equivalent of the SCA, but at the end of the day, veryveryvery few doing this. It really makes no sense on a big scale, and if someone where to attempt to make new ultra-flexy gold nibs, most people would balk at the price.

    Times have changed. Enjoy the vintage pens. Once they are gone, the options diminish rather quickly.
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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    I don't know if it hasn't dawned on anyone, or they are just keeping it to themselves, but the fact of the matter is that people don't write like that anymore.
    People haven't written like that since about 1925. Spencerian script and it thick and thin lines had pretty much died out as the way handwriting was taught in schools by 1925. It had been dying since the late 1800s. The "ladies hands" also died, except maybe in the south, for the same reason. The ascendant Palmer Method, and its chief rival Zaner-Bloser, had no use for thick/thin lines or flourishes. With the simplified style offered by the newer methods there was no need for a flexible nib. The few flexible nibs that remained became very expensive relative to the common steel nib. Probably by the 1930s, flexible nibs were already luxury items.

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    I don't know the situation with dip pen nibs, but with fountain pens nibs, flexibility did not command a premium in the era under discussion.
    So I would hesitate to describe flexible nibs as luxury items. Niche-market items, yes.

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    I've found plenty of flexible nibs from the '30's and not always on the higher end pens. National made plenty, Conklin did and most I've come across on the cheaper lines and Wahl was a big maker especially with their adjustable nib that allowed "instant" choice. Into the '50's flex was still available from Eversharp and Sheaffer, today flex pens from the '30's can be had for very reasonable prices but a flex Sheaffer Snorkel commands a substantial premium over even the least common colours yet Eversharp ( think Skyline, Sympony) with flex are still reasonably priced. Of the 3 nibs that stand out of mine 2 are Eversharp ( one a Doric Jnr. with an 18ct adjustable nib , the other a Symphony ) and one a National combo.

    Regards
    Hugh

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    But could a craftsman of today make a modern wet noodle? Is it possible?
    My other pen is a Montblanc.

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Kenshin View Post
    But could a craftsman of today make a modern wet noodle? Is it possible?
    They would possibly have to begin from scratch and re-invent the wheel. I don't know how much documentation is available on the process of making wet noodles.

    This all feels very 41st millennium. Maybe in an archive somewhere on Holy Terra, an STC exists, that will allow us to bring back the gold nibs with which the God Emperor of Mankind set out on his Crusade to conquer the Galaxy.

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Kenshin View Post
    But could a craftsman of today make a modern wet noodle? Is it possible?
    I have no doubt that it's possible to make one that's better for cheaper: Materials engineering, manufacturing consistency in volume and QC control are all much better and more precise than they used to be. Gold is much more expensive than it was a century ago, but if you're not stuck on having 14k nibs, you can probably get exactly the same feel out of other metals.

    The question is whether it is feasible as a business proposition. Granted, modern writing styles don't call for it, but that leaves open the opportunity to sell them as art tools which happen to be also useful for writing in Spencerian hand.

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    Default Re: Why are there no modern wet noodles?

    Quote Originally Posted by ardgedee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Kenshin View Post
    But could a craftsman of today make a modern wet noodle? Is it possible?
    I have no doubt that it's possible to make one that's better for cheaper: Materials engineering, manufacturing consistency in volume and QC control are all much better and more precise than they used to be. Gold is much more expensive than it was a century ago, but if you're not stuck on having 14k nibs, you can probably get exactly the same feel out of other metals.

    The question is whether it is feasible as a business proposition. Granted, modern writing styles don't call for it, but that leaves open the opportunity to sell them as art tools which happen to be also useful for writing in Spencerian hand.
    I don't think of it as any but a teeny niche market. The modern 'flex' nibs you get aren't really up to older standards, but they still make pretty thin and flexy dip nibs. So the ability must be there.
    My other pen is a Montblanc.

    And my other blog is a tumblr!


    And my latest ebook, for spooky wintery reading:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CM2NGSSD

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