Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 27

Thread: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

  1. #1
    Senior Member FredRydr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Carlisle, Pennsylvania USA
    Posts
    4,909
    Thanks
    1,396
    Thanked 6,390 Times in 2,505 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    I was listening to the streamed BBC Radio 4 show The Rise and Fall of the Antique about the status of antiques in the UK today. The commentator and guests touched upon the etymology of the words "antique" and "vintage." It seems as a result of American import duty legislation in the second decade of the 20th century, the term "antique" in the UK evolved to mean anything that was 100 years or older. After the Great War ended, rich Americans were buying! Alas, "vintage" was tossed into the mix to describe other old stuff that couldn't fit the desirable 100-year definition.

    Now, with fountain pens, it seems "vintage" has devolved into a meaning that if a pen model isn't available new from a retailer, it's vintage! Oh well. Caveat emptor.

  2. #2
    FPG Donor ♕ KrazyIvan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Texas-USA
    Posts
    5,068
    Thanks
    1,476
    Thanked 1,798 Times in 943 Posts
    Rep Power
    20

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    I see vintage in the pen world as a pen older than 25 years, again, that is my personal view. I can live with the original definition of antique and I am going to use it from here forward. I agree, though, with some peoples definition of vintage as being a bit dodgy or deceitful.
    Fountain Pen Sith Lord | Daakusaido | Everything in one spot

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to KrazyIvan For This Useful Post:

    Joygernaut (August 8th, 2018)

  4. #3
    Senior Member wingwiper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    400
    Thanks
    91
    Thanked 244 Times in 125 Posts
    Rep Power
    10

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
    I was listening to the streamed BBC Radio 4 show The Rise and Fall of the Antique about the status of antiques in the UK today. The commentator and guests touched upon the etymology of the words "antique" and "vintage." It seems as a result of American import duty legislation in the second decade of the 20th century, the term "antique" in the UK evolved to mean anything that was 100 years or older. After the Great War ended, rich Americans were buying! Alas, "vintage" was tossed into the mix to describe other old stuff that couldn't fit the desirable 100-year definition.

    Now, with fountain pens, it seems "vintage" has devolved into a meaning that if a pen model isn't available new from a retailer, it's vintage! Oh well. Caveat emptor.
    Great War....said correctly!

    So I reckon that is why we see modern used FP’s characterized vintage, however correctly from across the pond.

    So I reckon I am still vintage and not antique yet.....that is a good thing


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The secret of getting ahead is getting started-- Mark Twain

  5. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Woodinville, WA
    Posts
    168
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 79 Times in 44 Posts
    Rep Power
    7

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    Like Jar, I only think of pens older then me as being vintage. (Before 1962)

  6. #5
    Senior Member AzJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Flagstaff
    Posts
    764
    Thanks
    1,204
    Thanked 826 Times in 352 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    "Vintage" as a word has no practical meaning because its definition is arbitrary. "Vintage" being a particular year of grapes from a particular wine maker for no particular reason other than to label a year's crops. Perhaps the year was a very good growth year and made exceptional wine. A wine maker might call it a "2018 vintage", but another maker might not care.

    Beyond that, and in modern parlance, "Vintage" is broadly accepted (beyond the pen world) to be anything from approximately 1920s/30s to any time 20 years before the present. That means most products from the early 90s would be considered "vintage", particularly in the clothing worlds.

    Huzzah.

  7. #6
    Senior Member SIR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    GB
    Posts
    1,635
    Thanks
    725
    Thanked 732 Times in 466 Posts
    Rep Power
    10

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    I always think of vintage clothing as being at least one generation old.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Highlands of Scotland
    Posts
    1,747
    Thanks
    2,353
    Thanked 1,927 Times in 842 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    Neither have any meaning for pens.
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog

  9. #8
    Senior Member Kaputnik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    By the long tidal river.
    Posts
    1,043
    Thanks
    2,713
    Thanked 2,570 Times in 695 Posts
    Rep Power
    14

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    I have a couple of cartridge using pens from the 1960s. They seem less vintage-y to me than my Sheaffer Imperial from (I think) around 1973, which uses the touchdown filling system.

    I don't really worry too much about the correct usage of "vintage" with regard to pens, or whether there even is a correct usage. There are pens that interest me and pens that don't. Of the ones that are no longer made, the older ones often have features of particular interest to me, such as no longer made filling systems, no longer used materials (I'm particularly partial to old celluloids), or the kind of nib that they just don't make any more. The oldest that I use at all regularly is a Waterman's 12 PSF from around 1913 to 1917. There are others from the 1930s to the 50s that see a moderate amount of use. But the oldest pen that I have inked at this moment is a Montblanc Noblesse from the late 1970s, which has a modern Pelikan converter in it. Calling it vintage or modern doesn't really impart any useful information about it. Saying that it's a C/C pen with a very nice gold nib, and that you can only find them used these days would be more helpful.
    "If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly."
    G.K. Chesterton

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Kaputnik For This Useful Post:

    AzJon (August 8th, 2018)

  11. #9
    Senior Member AzJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Flagstaff
    Posts
    764
    Thanks
    1,204
    Thanked 826 Times in 352 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    End of the day "vintage" and "antique" are really just words that sound better than "old" for marketing purposes.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to AzJon For This Useful Post:

    penwash (August 8th, 2018), SIR (August 8th, 2018)

  13. #10
    Senior Member penwash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Dallas, as in the 80's TV Series
    Posts
    3,662
    Thanks
    3,364
    Thanked 6,703 Times in 1,972 Posts
    Rep Power
    14

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by AzJon View Post
    End of the day "vintage" and "antique" are really just words that sound better than "old" for marketing purposes.
    I agree. To me, a niche hobby has the tendency to form their own terms and definitions of that term.
    The word "vintage", although has more meaning or root in winery or brewery, has been accepted to describe old pens, that are not only no longer made, but the records about their production is no longer kept or cared for anymore. And that's good enough for me.

    One thing that I still can't get around is the usage of the term "Holy Grail pen" when describing a modern Visconti or Pilot that you can purchase without even getting up from your chair nowadays. But that's an argument for another thread
    - Will
    Unique and restored vintage pens: Redeem Pens

  14. #11
    Senior Member jar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    4,045
    Thanks
    479
    Thanked 3,712 Times in 1,610 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    Well, despite what any of you might think, there is a very precise definition of what qualifies as vintage. You guys don't like the facts, tough. Unless it was made before the day the Casablanca Conference started it is NOT vintage.

    Just another historical note: There has been an Old Wives Tale, Folklore, Fable that the Casablanca Conference was where Roosevelt and Churchill set the goal and conditions for ending the war, however that was in reality just a cover story. They were truly there to congratulate my father who happened to be in North Africa at the time.

  15. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to jar For This Useful Post:

    azkid (August 8th, 2018), catbert (August 8th, 2018), jmccarty3 (August 10th, 2018), Jon Szanto (August 9th, 2018), NibsForScript (August 9th, 2018)

  16. #12
    Senior Member AzJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Flagstaff
    Posts
    764
    Thanks
    1,204
    Thanked 826 Times in 352 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post

    One thing that I still can't get around is the usage of the term "Holy Grail pen" when describing a modern Visconti or Pilot that you can purchase without even getting up from your chair nowadays. But that's an argument for another thread
    Oh boy, that got my blood pressure to jump a few points just hearing the phrase!

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to AzJon For This Useful Post:

    jmccarty3 (August 10th, 2018), penwash (August 9th, 2018)

  18. #13
    Senior Member azkid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    2,016
    Thanks
    3,725
    Thanked 1,703 Times in 822 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
    Now, with fountain pens, it seems "vintage" has devolved into a meaning that if a pen model isn't available new from a retailer, it's vintage! Oh well. Caveat emptor.
    Devolved from what, though? Did it have a definition based on absolutes, like 'antique', or was it always a squishy marketing term, like 'new and improved'? Or "flexible nib"? Or "smooth writer"? Or, for that matter, "mint"?

    Honest question: why do folks find the ambiguity of 'vintage' annoying?

    For me, since I use the term when searching for pens, watches, and other collectables on eBay, I get annoyed with it's misuse for two reasons.

    1. When some whippersnapper lists a 90's item as vintage I feel old.

    2. It makes searching for items more difficult, but only slightly. I don't see too many listings I disagree with. Besides, I am usually looking for a particular brand or even model, or range of dates, or decade, or characteristic like BCHR or celluloid or cartridge, or flex, to get me in the ballpark.

    I'm way more annoyed not to have a universally adopted grading system like there is for records (groovy, vintage, plastic discs). At least NOS is a fairly sacred term. Don't get me started on "mint."

  19. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to azkid For This Useful Post:

    NibsForScript (August 9th, 2018), penwash (August 8th, 2018)

  20. #14
    Senior Member FredRydr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Carlisle, Pennsylvania USA
    Posts
    4,909
    Thanks
    1,396
    Thanked 6,390 Times in 2,505 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    Devolved from what, though?
    Devolved from old.

  21. The Following User Says Thank You to FredRydr For This Useful Post:

    jmccarty3 (August 10th, 2018)

  22. #15
    Senior Member SIR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    GB
    Posts
    1,635
    Thanks
    725
    Thanked 732 Times in 466 Posts
    Rep Power
    10

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    At least NOS is a fairly sacred term.
    Fairly... but sadly, not absolutely! We know what we think it should mean, and still there are some sellers who think otherwise .

  23. #16
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Highlands of Scotland
    Posts
    1,747
    Thanks
    2,353
    Thanked 1,927 Times in 842 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    As I said above, these terms are pretty meaningless with regard to fountain pens. In the UK and perhaps elsewhere, cars and motorbikes made between 1919 and 1930 are vintage, so it has a fixed meaning there. In fountain pens, it means what you want it to mean - there have been several threads about that before. In collectables generally antique means 100 years old or older, so that's a constantly moving definition. It's not very often used for fountain pens except in eBay where it is used to describe just about any pen the seller hope he can get a high price for.

    For many years I avoided using "vintage" because it has no definition for fountain pens. I called them old pens, which they indisputably were. In the end I gave in and I bandy "vintage" about with the best of them.
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog

  24. The Following User Says Thank You to Deb For This Useful Post:

    pajaro (August 10th, 2018)

  25. #17
    FPG Donor ♕ Chrissy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    11,406
    Thanks
    6,879
    Thanked 10,367 Times in 3,978 Posts
    Rep Power
    24

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    I have always believed the term "antique" means an object that is 100 years old or older. "Vintage" is younger than "antique" and is routinely used when "antique" doesn't apply.

  26. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Chrissy For This Useful Post:

    pajaro (August 10th, 2018), penwash (August 9th, 2018)

  27. #18
    Senior Member AzJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Flagstaff
    Posts
    764
    Thanks
    1,204
    Thanked 826 Times in 352 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    As I said above, these terms are pretty meaningless with regard to fountain pens. In the UK and perhaps elsewhere, cars and motorbikes made between 1919 and 1930 are vintage, so it has a fixed meaning there. In fountain pens, it means what you want it to mean - there have been several threads about that before. In collectables generally antique means 100 years old or older, so that's a constantly moving definition. It's not very often used for fountain pens except in eBay where it is used to describe just about any pen the seller hope he can get a high price for.

    For many years I avoided using "vintage" because it has no definition for fountain pens. I called them old pens, which they indisputably were. In the end I gave in and I bandy "vintage" about with the best of them.
    Interesting, Deb. What are cars from the 60s called? Classics?

  28. #19
    Senior Member jar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    4,045
    Thanks
    479
    Thanked 3,712 Times in 1,610 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by AzJon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    As I said above, these terms are pretty meaningless with regard to fountain pens. In the UK and perhaps elsewhere, cars and motorbikes made between 1919 and 1930 are vintage, so it has a fixed meaning there. In fountain pens, it means what you want it to mean - there have been several threads about that before. In collectables generally antique means 100 years old or older, so that's a constantly moving definition. It's not very often used for fountain pens except in eBay where it is used to describe just about any pen the seller hope he can get a high price for.

    For many years I avoided using "vintage" because it has no definition for fountain pens. I called them old pens, which they indisputably were. In the end I gave in and I bandy "vintage" about with the best of them.
    Interesting, Deb. What are cars from the 60s called? Classics?
    If they spent their whole life in Phoenix, a car. If in Detroit, rust.

  29. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to jar For This Useful Post:

    AzJon (August 9th, 2018), azkid (August 10th, 2018), Kulprit (August 9th, 2018), pajaro (August 10th, 2018)

  30. #20
    Senior Member FredRydr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Carlisle, Pennsylvania USA
    Posts
    4,909
    Thanks
    1,396
    Thanked 6,390 Times in 2,505 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: "Vintage" & "Antique" & etc.

    The Classic Car Club of America has, for its purposes, promulgated their specific definition of "classic" to distinguish from run-of-the-mill antique. I no longer am in the antique car hobby, so I cannot recall how it was worded.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •