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Thread: Why Would Anyone . . .

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    Senior Member Paddler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post
    ...By the way, these inks are also perfectly usable with dip pens. Nearly any vintage dip nib will work if you know how to tweak it. For dipping, sumi ink is wonderful and can be ground on a suzuri to perfect flow characteristics. It and homemade walnut ink are both water and fade resistant enough for nearly any purpose....
    I find fountain pen inks are usually a PITA when it comes to my antique dip pens with gold nibs. All too often, those inks fail to leave a sufficient coat on the underside of the nib to supply the slit, failing to adhere by forming small droplets and requiring too-frequent dips to keep on writing.

    What is a suzuri? I guess I should go look it up and answer it myself. Looked up - Ah, I grew up with suzuris around the house; my mother was an artist and for a period was heavily in to using them with the ink sticks, but with brushes, not nibs.

    As for the groundhogs, please come and pour your unwanted ink down my groundhog burrows if it drives them away or sends them to gopher heaven. (If anyone loves groundhogs, come and adopt mine and take them home with you.)
    A nib has to be clean clean clean to start with. Clean it with lighter fluid or paint thinner to de-grease it first. Then scrub it with dish soap on a cotton swab. Then lick it. The ink will stick. You are aiming for nib creep here.

    There are many colors of sumi sticks available now, not just black. The ones I have are all water resistant when dry. It actually depends on the glue used to make the stick.

    I spent many summers trying to run off woodchucks from my back yard and garden. I was unable to do it. The only way I could ever rid myself of them was to provide them with alternate quarters . . . in a Crockpot. The flavor is much like that of fox squirrel.
    "Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little." -Epicurus-

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Why non-permanent? Because my shirts need to last longer than my grocery list does.

    I don't "journal", nor take valuable notes out in the rain. The stuff I write that needs to last or endure weather (like addressing envelopes), is so infrequent that it's really not worth filling a pen with, and then having it clog up because it's not being used. I'll stick to using a ballpoint or a dip pen for those occasional tasks.

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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    So, if you had a house fire and the fire department came and, in the process of saving your digs, hosed down your journals and your commonplace book, would you still have your writing or would you have some nice books full of modern "art"? Some of the inks I have tried, when exposed to a soak in a notebook, will bleed through to two or three adjacent pages, leaving a real indecipherable mess worse than a palimpsest. If you are going to test these inks for water resistance, you have to do it inside a book.
    "Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little." -Epicurus-

  5. #24
    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    I've lost many a friend, I've had loved ones and family members pass away, and I've managed to go on with life. In spite of those losses, I've had to get up every day and I choose to do it in a positive manner. If I can survive those losses and continue a full life, why would I worry about some words on a page?

    Nothing is truly permanent. Be here now.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post
    So, if you had a house fire and the fire department came and, in the process of saving your digs, hosed down your journals and your commonplace book, would you still have your writing or would you have some nice books full of modern "art"? Some of the inks I have tried, when exposed to a soak in a notebook, will bleed through to two or three adjacent pages, leaving a real indecipherable mess worse than a palimpsest. If you are going to test these inks for water resistance, you have to do it inside a book.
    Seriously? If my house caught fire, and everything was water and smoke damaged, I would have far more important things to worry about than what I'd scribbled in a book. If that was a priority for me, I'd hope one of my family or friends would rattle some sense into me.

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  9. #26
    Senior Member KKay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    What if you were writing the best book of your life then? You wouldn't want to do that on a computer. If you wrote with fountain pen ink that isn't permanent it would be asking for trouble. I have a journal I've been working on with important info. I rarely write with anything but permanent ink in that book. It would be a lot of hard research down the drain if I lost it all. To each his own. If you don't like permanent inks, don't use them. It is just as simple as that.

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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post
    So, if you had a house fire and the fire department came and, in the process of saving your digs, hosed down your journals and your commonplace book, would you still have your writing or would you have some nice books full of modern "art"? Some of the inks I have tried, when exposed to a soak in a notebook, will bleed through to two or three adjacent pages, leaving a real indecipherable mess worse than a palimpsest. If you are going to test these inks for water resistance, you have to do it inside a book.
    Had a friend who had a house fire a few years ago. At 67, she lost everything. If it didn't burn, the smoke damage was so bad that it was functionally destroyed. She lost every single physical memory of her past.

    Beyond the fact that nothing is permanent, the second fact is that no one really cares. Having gone to estate sales for years, I have witnessed collection after collection of notebooks and newspapers unceremoniously tossed into the bin. Grandchildren given their deceased grandparents things rummage for some material items, a pocket knife, a decanter, whatever, but never the books. Those get tossed out. Or taken, never read, forgotten, and eventually found again, damaged beyond reason after poor storage in a shed for a decade or two.

    Write however you wish, with whatever ink you please, but back off others that choose to use inks that are colorful or sparkly or shiny because it makes them happy right now and right now is the only time promised you.

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  13. #28
    Senior Member FredRydr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post
    So, if you had a house fire and the fire department came....
    And then there's always the issue of fire-resistant ink.

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  15. #29
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Forgive my ignorance, but are all/most "permanent" inks IG formulations? I've used some from time to time (signing my will documents, for instance). They certainly can be useful, but can also be a bit of a chore to clean. For most uses, I prefer other easy-to-clean inks.
    No. At one time that was the case, but very few permanent inks these days are IG.


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  16. #30
    Senior Member Kulprit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AzJon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post
    Parker and Sheaffer made permanent inks back in the day and the color would wash off, leaving a legible grey behind.
    Sounds like IG to me. That's exactly what happens with both the R&K Salix and Scabiosa. The dye washes out, but the iron oxide remains. You definitely wouldn't find any of the cellulose reactive (Noodler's) or nano-pigment (Sailor) permanent inks from the likes of Parker or Sheaffer, modern or vintage.
    I can’t speak for vintage Quink, but vintage “permanent” Skrip was not an IG.


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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by KKay View Post
    What if you were writing the best book of your life then? You wouldn't want to do that on a computer. If you wrote with fountain pen ink that isn't permanent it would be asking for trouble. I have a journal I've been working on with important info. I rarely write with anything but permanent ink in that book. It would be a lot of hard research down the drain if I lost it all. To each his own. If you don't like permanent inks, don't use them. It is just as simple as that.
    Be careful about using phrases like that. If you really believe that things you have written are so indellibly (hehe) important that you can't possibly risk them to impermanent inks, but you take no further precautions, it's hard to take seriously. If it were research or a screenplay or *any* item that is of great value, it behooves you to store that information in mutliple formats and in multiple storage systems. Redundancy is key in safety, so the pages of the journal should be scanned or photographed and the images archived both in local and remote storage.

    Anything less than redundant storage - as unromantic as that is - is simply inadequate for "important info".
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Senior Member Kulprit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Most of my writing falls into one of two categories: work writing and personal writing. For neither is permanence required. Everything I write at work (well, just about) ends up being transcribed digitally; I really only handwrite things because I find it more pleasurable (and more engaging) than typing. The inks I choose are either purpose-driven (reds or greens to stand off the page; low-feathering inks for use on copy paper) or are chosen specifically to give my eyes a break from the walls of black or conservative-blue text I’d otherwise be forced to look at.

    My personal writing it mostly just me playing with pens. Nothing of significance is recorded. It’s highly unlikely that any of that will ever be read, even by future me.

    While I do own and use many permanent inks, that quality is almost always incidental to my primary reason for choosing that ink. The one exception to this is Noodler’s Heart of Darkness, which I use for addressing all envelopes and parcels.


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    Senior Member KKay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    I am not writing a book, or a screenplay. If I were I would not want to put it on my computer for a hacker to acquire. I do have some things on my computer, plus a lot of time consuming hand written entries. I have also printed out some files, and have copies of them given to a couple of friends as well. Most of my notes are done by hand. It would be something of interest to my grown kids. They already know about it. I told them about it already, and I know at least one of my kids wants the journal. My other journals would not be of interest to anyone whatsoever.

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  23. #34
    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by KKay View Post
    I am not writing a book, or a screenplay. If I were I would not want to put it on my computer for a hacker to acquire. I do have some things on my computer, plus a lot of time consuming hand written entries. I have also printed out some files, and have copies of them given to a couple of friends as well. Most of my notes are done by hand. It would be something of interest to my grown kids. They already know about it. I told them about it already, and I know at least one of my kids wants the journal. My other journals would not be of interest to anyone whatsoever.
    KKay, I understand the personal nature of *your* particular writings (mine would pretty much all fall into that category as well). I was, though, talking about the larger issue raised by the OP and your notion that it was all a pretty simple choice. When the discussion branched out into the other tragedies that could befall a written document, that is when I mentioned other storage methods. I've had to do archival work for a composer I knew and performed with, so I'm familiar with archiving stratetgies for printed word, visual media and recorded sound. With irreplaceable items, you simply can't be too careful.

    Our musings? I think we can be careful without being obsessive, and you sound like you've taken reasonable precautions for future family generations.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Senior Member KKay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Jon, I would say that most people want the beautiful ink even if it is not permanent. That is fine by me, it is their choice. Luckily we do have a wide range of inks to pick from. These days because of my journal especially, I choose more permanent inks. I do like to switch out colors though, as I get bored with the same colors all the time. I would never throw ink out though, I would give it away or sell it if I didn't want it anymore. I have passed on a lot of ink, simply because it wasn't at the very least water resistant. I do have several permanent inks, and lots of fun colors to play with. (many of them are not water resistant, but I decided that I would just about stop increasing that category) Some of my ink is just water resistant, and that is fine for most things I write. Thankfully there are some inks that are quite appealing that are permanent. I haven't purchased any ink in a long time. There is one at the top of my list though, and I have tried it. It is a pretty color, permanent and reasonably priced. I've wanted that ink for a year now, but I still don't have it. (Not yet anyway)

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Kay, one thing I'd mention in passing is KWZ. They have a number of iron gall inks in their lineup that are quite colorful - blues, greens, reds, purples (not sure about others). They behave well and are quite permanent. I'm pretty sure Vanness Pens carries their entire line so you could try some samples. It might be a good solution to having some color but also permanence. My only uses for waterproof (and, I suppose permanent) is for correspondence where the envelope or postcard might get wet. For that kind of use I'm ok with blues and blacks.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Thank you Jon. I have about 4 of their regular inks, but no IG ink yet. I have started trying out some modern IG ink lately, but I have not purchased any. I have tried one of the Platinum Classic IG colors, but it didn't send me. I will be exploring the modern IG inks, and KWZ will be a brand I plan to try, thanks again.

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    Senior Member Paddler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Most of you guys are way too humble. If you don't have lives worth reading about, dammit get them! Twain said to live in such a way that, when you come to die, even the undertaker is sorry.

    Someday, a couple of your descendants are going to page through the family photo album and find your pictiure:
    "Whozat?"
    "Caption says it was our great uncle Jim"
    "What'd he do?"
    "Damfino. There is a headstone with a name and two dates on it in the boneyard. That is all anybody knows."
    "Well, I guess we don't need this picture anymore, do we?"


    I read about some villagers in China (I may have read it here) who, when a house caught fire and threatened to spread, they would take their bundles of family records and drop them down the well on their way to safety. They could fish them out and dry them later because the records were written on good paper with sumi ink.
    "Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little." -Epicurus-

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  32. #39
    Senior Member AzJon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    If it were research or a screenplay or *any* item that is of great value, it behooves you to store that information in mutliple formats and in multiple storage systems. Redundancy is key in safety
    Precisely. Permanent inks are only so useful. Back ups for your back ups are the only way to ensure some degree of safety. Computer servers are based around the country for redundancy for exactly that reason.

    Beyond that. I you really want something light-fast and waterproof, you should stick to using a pencil. Graphite will last a loooong time on a page assuming it isn't erased. But it is totally waterproof and light-fast.

  33. #40
    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post
    Most of you guys are way too humble. If you don't have lives worth reading about, dammit get them!
    That may be your path, but it is not mine.
    Last edited by Jon Szanto; September 27th, 2018 at 02:07 PM.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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