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Thread: Why Would Anyone . . .

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    Senior Member Paddler's Avatar
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    Default Why Would Anyone . . .

    . . . use an ink that is not permanent?

    I have many inks and many pens and a great many journals. The inks that formed the non-permanent part of my ink cellar used to be used for writing drafts of stories that would be edited and later used with permanent inks for inclusion in journals. I sometimes used these non-permanent inks to fill my EDC pen. What the hell, the pen was only used for my shirt pocket notebook. What could go wrong with that?

    One morning, I was caught in a summer shower while going to my post office box 200 meters from my door and the few drops of rain that fell onto the top of my notebook did an annoying amount of damage to my notes. The rain drops completely obliterated parts of words and numbers that I thought were secure from my ageing memory.

    I took all the inks from my cellar that couldn't show permanence in the face of distilled water and poured them down the closest woodchuck hole. All of those nice glass bottles got thrown into the clink (recycle bin).

    Pretty colors be damned. Permanence is the reason I write things down.
    "Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little." -Epicurus-

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    Useless mhosea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    I use Sailor Sei Boku for checks. However, most of what I write by hand is meant to be ephemeral. Often it is of use only at that sitting (e.g. working through a mathematical derivation or proof). If I need it for the longer term, I commit it to an electronic record of some kind.
    --
    Mike

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    Senior Member KKay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Paddler, I too appreciate permanent or at least water resistant (recoverable) inks. Many people care more about color than permanent ink it seems. I like both, but I'm lucky to have some that fit my needs. If I get an ink that has pretty color, I try to avoid those that fade. Most of my inks are fairly saturated. I love lubrication as well with my ink, and shading. Different strokes for different folks, that is what it is all about.

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    Senior Member Robert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Forgive my ignorance, but are all/most "permanent" inks IG formulations? I've used some from time to time (signing my will documents, for instance). They certainly can be useful, but can also be a bit of a chore to clean. For most uses, I prefer other easy-to-clean inks.

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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    I don't think most permanent inks are IG formulations. Parker and Sheaffer made permanent inks back in the day and the color would wash off, leaving a legible grey behind. I doubt these were IG. Anybody know for sure? Anyway, I have used these inks for years without cleaning the pens and they have given the feeds no clogging problems.
    "Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little." -Epicurus-

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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    On this, I'm with you.

    If I'm going to the trouble and effort of writing something with a fountain pen, or any pen for that matter, I want it to be at least as permanent as the paper it's on. I don't want a few drops of rain to wash away my work, thoughts, lists, ideas, efforts, etc.

    A similar experience a few years ago brought me to this point. I was outside making images when a sudden summer thunderstorm popped up. My camera bodies and lenses are weather sealed, the notebook in my front pocket, not so. My photo equipment was fine, but the entries in my notebook turned to mush. So, never again. For my portable notebook and anything else that may see the light of day, I'm using permanent inks. I do have one red pen with Skrip red because once in a while I need a standout point, but it's not being used on anything that may get wet. I also use Bungu Box Silent Night in my Sailor King of Pen and the Pilot 823 because I love the ink. I haven't found it to be permanent, but it is recoverable from water. And those pens don't ever leave the house anyway.

    Despite the persistent alarms about what "permanent" inks will do to pens (stain, clog feeds, etc.) I haven't had a single problem. I have a TWSBI Eco dedicated to Baystate Blue, and it was in there for two years with no problems. I recently dumped what was still in it, cleaned it out and refilled with BSB. If it makes a few blue stains inside the plastic barrel, I really don't care. I've found Aurora Black to be a reasonably recoverable black ink, and it's as "well behaved" as any ink could be. I also use Aurora Blue and Blue-Black and I'd expect the same from them. Mostly I'm using Noodles for permanent inks -- Black Eel, Heart of Darkness, Lexington Gray, 54th Mass., El Lawrence and Kung Te Cheng. I've taken to using Sailor Seiboku and Souboku as well as Kiwa Guro. My best black alternative is Platinum Carbon Black, and it never gives me trouble no matter the pen it's in. I use it to address envelopes with a Franklin Christoph music nib. Dead black, a little italic and big enough to be seen by any blind postal worker!

    I'm not looking for a woodchuck hole, but I do plan to give away a lot of ink next time I go to a local pen meeting or a pen show. I'll be keeping every drop of my permanent inks.

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    I can't think of anything I write that needs permanence.

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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    I can't think of anything I write that needs permanence.
    That's how I feel.

    If writing with loads of different colours means not necessarily having permanence then I'm happy as I am. None of my current penpals has complained..... yet.
    Regards, Chrissy | My Review Blog: inkyfountainpens

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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    I can't think of anything I write that needs permanence.
    Much of what I write (mostly story drafts) doesn't need permanence either. But if I write something down in my shirt pocket notebook, I would like it to last long enough to jog my memory a day or two later. When the notebook fills, I want to go through and upload some things into my commonplace book. A few lousy raindrops can wash away a digit from a phone number. Holy carp on a cracker! Some of the inks I had were no better than food coloring.

    That is all behind me now. Everything not colorfast has gone to entertain the local groundhog.
    "Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little." -Epicurus-

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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    I write drafts, for the most part. So long as it survives until I type it up in the blog that's permanent enough for me. Same applies to correspondence. My writing don't need to survive for some future researcher to include in a blockbusting biography.
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog

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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post
    Parker and Sheaffer made permanent inks back in the day and the color would wash off, leaving a legible grey behind.
    Sounds like IG to me. That's exactly what happens with both the R&K Salix and Scabiosa. The dye washes out, but the iron oxide remains. You definitely wouldn't find any of the cellulose reactive (Noodler's) or nano-pigment (Sailor) permanent inks from the likes of Parker or Sheaffer, modern or vintage.

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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post
    That is all behind me now. Everything not colorfast has gone to entertain the local groundhog.
    It was your property, of course, but to just pour them out seems very wasteful. Why not give the ink you don’t want away to friends (or people here) that don’t care about permanence? That happens often at our local pen club. Reuse the ink bottles to share ink between home and work, or share among friends. Or heck, even sell the ink you don’t want so you can buy more of what you do want? People would likely be glad to pay shipping at least if you have no pen club/pen friends close by. Please consider it in future if you have ink you do not want.

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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by bill.davis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post
    That is all behind me now. Everything not colorfast has gone to entertain the local groundhog.
    It was your property, of course, but to just pour them out seems very wasteful. Why not give the ink you don’t want away to friends (or people here) that don’t care about permanence? That happens often at our local pen club. Reuse the ink bottles to share ink between home and work, or share among friends. Or heck, even sell the ink you don’t want so you can buy more of what you do want? People would likely be glad to pay shipping at least if you have no pen club/pen friends close by. Please consider it in future if you have ink you do not want.
    The real waste occurred when the "ink" was manufactured, packaged, transported, and sold. Paying shipping charges to pass it on would compound the crime. The same goes for pens that don't work properly because of a design flaw that was ignored by the manufacturer. On a broader scale, look at all the junk for sale at flea markets. Somebody actually bought this dreck and now try to sell it to another fool. I know; I bought a lot of junk pens at flea markets. And bought some inks that should have been used for baking. Hell, I could have saved all that money and bought chairs for the standing army.
    Last edited by Paddler; September 24th, 2018 at 05:59 AM.
    "Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little." -Epicurus-

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    Senior Member FredRydr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post
    ...On a broader scale, look at all the junk for sale at flea markets. Somebody actually bought this dreck and now try to sell it to another fool....
    Yes, and yet, consider what is being foisted on consumers today and destined for flea markets, landfills and the oceans. (Is this what we call off topic?)

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    Senior Member Paddler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post
    ...On a broader scale, look at all the junk for sale at flea markets. Somebody actually bought this dreck and now try to sell it to another fool....
    Yes, and yet, consider what is being foisted on consumers today and destined for flea markets, landfills and the oceans. (Is this what we call off topic?)
    Yup. It is a tangent covered by "artistic license" or "writers' latitude".
    "Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little." -Epicurus-

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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post
    I took all the inks from my cellar that couldn't show permanence in the face of distilled water and poured them down the closest woodchuck hole.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post
    Everything not colorfast has gone to entertain the local groundhog.
    Must be some colourful wildlife in your neck of the woods.

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    Default Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post

    The real waste occurred when the "ink" was manufactured, packaged, transported, and sold. Paying shipping charges to pass it on would compound the crime. The same goes for pens that don't work properly because of a design flaw that was ignored by the manufacturer. On a broader scale, look at all the junk for sale at flea markets. Somebody actually bought this dreck and now try to sell it to another fool. I know; I bought a lot of junk pens at flea markets. And bought some inks that should have been used for baking. Hell, I could have saved all that money and bought chairs for the standing army.
    Oh well, your loss will be our gain. More inks for us! I hope you’re not a pen club member, though; they’ll drum you out with that attitude and for wasting perfectly good ink. Better not tell them. Oh wait, you already did here in this virtual pen club. Oops. That might not have been wise.

    Glad to hear you don’t like vintage pens either; that’s just more for the rest of us “fools”! Hell, half the fun is learning how to fix them up good as new! Even the very damaged ones find new life as parts donors. Little to nothing is wasted in the landfills. Again, your loss will be our gain.

    At this rate, you’ll be using just disposable advertising ballpoints before you know it. Somebody’s got to, I guess. Your loss will be our gain again. Thanks for doing that for us!
    Last edited by bill.davis; September 24th, 2018 at 09:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by bill.davis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post

    The real waste occurred when the "ink" was manufactured, packaged, transported, and sold. Paying shipping charges to pass it on would compound the crime. The same goes for pens that don't work properly because of a design flaw that was ignored by the manufacturer. On a broader scale, look at all the junk for sale at flea markets. Somebody actually bought this dreck and now try to sell it to another fool. I know; I bought a lot of junk pens at flea markets. And bought some inks that should have been used for baking. Hell, I could have saved all that money and bought chairs for the standing army.
    Oh well, your loss will be our gain. More inks for us! I hope you’re not a pen club member, though; they’ll drum you out with that attitude and for wasting perfectly good ink. Better not tell them. Oh wait, you already did here in this virtual pen club. Oops. That might not have been wise.

    Glad to hear you don’t like vintage pens either; that’s just more for the rest of us “fools”! Hell, half the fun is learning how to fix them up good as new! Even the very damaged ones find new life as parts donors. Little to nothing is wasted in the landfills. Again, your loss will be our gain.

    At this rate, you’ll be using just disposable advertising ballpoints before you know it. Somebody’s got to, I guess. Your loss will be our gain again. Thanks for doing that for us!
    I use many vintage inks in the permanent category. There are perfectly usable permanent Quink and Skrip colors available at flea markets. Noodlers bulletproof, and semi-bulletproof, inks work well and have given me no trouble. I had to find all this out the hard way by wasting money on ink and paper by testing. I was almost finished with this project by the time reliable ink reviews were available.

    By the way, these inks are also perfectly usable with dip pens. Nearly any vintage dip nib will work if you know how to tweak it. For dipping, sumi ink is wonderful and can be ground on a suzuri to perfect flow characteristics. It and homemade walnut ink are both water and fade resistant enough for nearly any purpose.

    As for pens, I use vintage pens almost exclusively. Granted, it was fun learning to restore all those wacky filling mechanisms and mule-hauling all those poorly made nibs through a grinding and smoothing process. But you can't beat a good Sheaffer Valiant or Vigilant pen and it is futile to try.

    Edited to add: I don't join clubs. As far as being drummed out of one goes: "Pleeeeeeeze, Br'er Fox. Don't throw me in dat briar patch!"
    Last edited by Paddler; September 25th, 2018 at 06:50 AM.
    "Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little." -Epicurus-

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    Senior Member FredRydr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddler View Post
    ...By the way, these inks are also perfectly usable with dip pens. Nearly any vintage dip nib will work if you know how to tweak it. For dipping, sumi ink is wonderful and can be ground on a suzuri to perfect flow characteristics. It and homemade walnut ink are both water and fade resistant enough for nearly any purpose....
    I find fountain pen inks are usually a PITA when it comes to my antique dip pens with gold nibs. All too often, those inks fail to leave a sufficient coat on the underside of the nib to supply the slit, failing to adhere by forming small droplets and requiring too-frequent dips to keep on writing.

    What is a suzuri? I guess I should go look it up and answer it myself. Looked up - Ah, I grew up with suzuris around the house; my mother was an artist and for a period was heavily in to using them with the ink sticks, but with brushes, not nibs.

    As for the groundhogs, please come and pour your unwanted ink down my groundhog burrows if it drives them away or sends them to gopher heaven. (If anyone loves groundhogs, come and adopt mine and take them home with you.)
    Last edited by FredRydr; September 25th, 2018 at 07:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Why Would Anyone . . .

    For me, both have their place: I use permanent inks for anything important, but they are usually not that pretty. For my horribly amateur calligraphy, I like fancy colorful inks.

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